Building and Fire Safety Expert Working Group: March 2024

Welcome

The chair welcomed everyone to the second meeting of the Building and Fire Safety Expert Working Group (EWG) and covered the agenda for the meeting. New attendees were introduced.

Meeting Business

Apologies were noted. Minutes of the last meeting were agreed previously via email and published online. Spelling of two member’s names to be amended. 

Conflict of Interest have been declared and have been recorded. It is accepted that interests may change as discussions progress. Reminder for members to be open and transparent.

All comments on papers received from members was welcomed and have been collated into a rolling spread sheet. Intent is to ensure that the comments are addressed as the policy develops across the various work strands.

Ad hoc meetings of the group may be organised if the need arises. Next planned meeting is 28 May.

A brief update on the website was provided including publication of minutes and Terms of Reference. 

A fire safety workshop took place on 21 February in collaboration with industry.  Awareness and discussion on fire risks in traditional buildings was promoted. Members of the working group who participated were thanked. Topics included response from the hospitality sector regarding fire safety management, fire safety law / roles and responsibilities, Scottish Government (SG) and Historic Environment Scotland (HES) guidance, fire engineering, active and passive fire precautions in traditional buildings and lived experience . The event was attended by over 400 participants. SG confirmed they were happy to receive feedback on the event and topics for future workshops.

Action Point (AP) 1: Contact SG web team to amend spelling of members names noted above.

Recommendation 4 of the Cameron House Hotel FAI

Paper 3 was presented to the group, giving background to Recommendation 4 of the Cameron House Hotel Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI). The benefits and limitations to automatic fire suppression were highlighted particularly with regard to complex, multi-phase historic buildings with interlinked hidden voids with lath and plaster construction. It was explained that Recommendation 4 was not intended to cover all future hotel (or guest house) conversions but rather that there might be a case where a similar range of complex, interlinked factors existed including where a large number of members of the public are present who present a sleeping risk and are unfamiliar with the escape routes.       

Paper 4 provided discussion on conversions, definitions and scope of application. There was previous consensus that conversion types 4, 6, 7 & 9 of schedule 2 of the building regulations would cover most (if not all) conversions of traditional buildings to residential buildings. Work is ongoing to consider the evidence base to regulate for this type of conversion. Options, definitions and damage value were discussed. General consensus that there was an increasing prevalence of modern construction techniques from the 1920’s so the reference to 1919 in the definition of traditional building is a useful as a reference point only. This date is embedded in many areas of historic building work. General agreement that traditional mass masonry and voids often between wall and linings described traditional construction within the context of the FAI recommendations.

Action Point (AP) 2: HES to consider the definitions of Traditional Building, Historic Building and Listed Building and any unintended consequences.

Post meeting note: Officials have proposed a definition of Traditional building for HES to consider based on discussion during the meeting: “Traditional Building means a building constructed using techniques in common use before 1919, typically of mass masonry and permeable components, used in a way that promotes dissipation of moisture from the building fabric.”

One member commented that additional guidance on the fire risk in traditional buildings can be provided in the supporting guidance to provide more context if required.  

There was some discussion which sprinkler standard to apply to hotels including alternative forms of suppression. One member highlighted that we may wish to consider a BS 9251 system which would have a more positive impact on the Cost Benefit Analysis rather than a BS EN 12845 system.  There is no reference to hotels in BS 9251. There was general consensus that a sprinkler system designed to BS EN 12845 would be one of the key standards to apply to hotels of the scale and complexity envisaged by Recommendation 4 of the FAI. There was some discussion of what constitutes a small hotel.  The general consensus was that small hotels, bed and breakfast establishments and boarding houses are out with the scope of Recommendation 4 but no consensus was reached on how this is measured.  

An overview of Paper 5 Update on Cost Benefit Analysis was presented to the group. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service Incident Recording System and Valuation Roll was discussed including the challenges of identifying traditional buildings. It was proposed to look at the fire data and take a sample of hotels across the ten valuation areas. Members agreed to support a sense check exercise as part of a qualitative review. Sprinkler effectiveness was also discussed. Some concern was raised on the sample size and it was suggested that fire investigation reports could be used to assess whether sprinklers would have made a difference to the outcome of the incident.

Post meeting note: BAFSA circulated a paper on sprinkler effectiveness after the meeting and asked for the paper to be circulated to members. 

Action Point (AP) 3: BSD to circulate BAFSA paper on sprinkler reliability to members. 

Action Point (AP) 4: Members to support analysis of hotel stock to add value to identification of traditional buildings.

Action Point (AP) 5: BAFSA to reach out to EU fire sprinkler network for any relevant studies on hotels. 

Conversions of historic buildings

Paper 6 was presented to members explaining the practical challenges which architects and designers face when converting complex traditional buildings for new or expanded uses. There is a policy presumption against works which will have an adverse impact on the special architectural or historic interest of a building. Conversions or refurbishment often involve a series of different periods of build and differing construction techniques. This makes it extremely difficult to determine how parts of the property have been designed and constructed. The variation in quality of work and level of defects that exist make complex traditional buildings susceptible to fire. Formal approval is not a guarantee of quality and many designers will not be aware of the defects. Conversion of an old building is very difficult to do with any competence and specialist advice may often be needed on specific risk topics.

HES provided an oral update on the Guide for Practitioners 6 – Conversion of Traditional Buildings. The document is in two volumes and will be re-written and updated as opposed to a new document. HES have agreed to revise the document in partnership with BSD and with input from the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland (RIAS). BSD have completed the initial review and HES are in discussion with RIAS on how their review would be undertaken. The initial review will highlight where specialist contracted authors may be needed. It is intended to align the review programme of GP6 with the current fire review programme (paper 7). 

HES have commissioned a short guide to fire safety management in traditional buildings. The guide will be targeted at planners, owners, duty holders, entry level practitioners and professionals and is expected to be published in Summer 2024.

The Guide for Practitioners 7 – Fire Safety Management in Traditional Buildings is not currently part of the workstreams for the year 2024. However, HES commented that there is significant interest and appetite to update GP7 and HES will look to budget for this in 2025.  

Programme

The programme (Paper 7) was presented to members and key milestones highlighted.  

Standards 2.15 Review

An oral update was provided to members explaining the intent to amend standard 2.15 to enable LAs to make local decisions on extensions and low risk conversions without the need to formally relax or dispense with the standard. The key driver is the disproportionate cost of installing AFSS when compared with the project costs.  Research has been published to support the decision making process. The short term plan is to issue a Direction to LA’s dispensing with standard 2.15 in prescribed cases. BSD are currently consulting LABSS and SFRS before finalising. Version 2 of the Direction is being developed. 

Miscellaneous issues

Miscellaneous issues will be discussed in more detail at the next meeting. 

An oral update was provided on the evidence base to extend the ban on combustible external wall cladding systems to hotels, boarding houses and hostels. The Building Research Establishment (BRE) have completed phase 1 of the research.  Phase 2 will be commissioned over the Summer. 

External Premises Information Plates (PIP)

Paper 8 was presented to the group on the provision for external premises information plates on new and refurbished high rise domestic buildings more than 18 m.  The SG committed to this as part of the response to Grenfell Phase 1 report. HMFSI thematic inspection recommended that high rise domestic premises should have  information plates to assist the SFRS. The SFRS have also asked SG to look at mandating this information. The bright yellow plate is 1m x 1m that offers easy to see fire and rescue service information on the building. 

The SFRS are happy to engage with owners and factors on what should be on the plates and help with more complex situations. Historically SFRS have tried to fit plates to buildings where they can and the challenge is finding duty holders to fund action. SFRS facilitated this but found it difficult to gain traction particularly around mixed tenure and people not liking the appearance of the plate.

One member commented that the type of lift should be clearly indicated e.g. firemans lift, fire lift, firefighting lift, evacuation lift or passenger lift. It was noted that some building refits are removing the fire-fighters switch which creates problems.  Comment was made that the technical handbook guidance does not deal with existing high rise domestic buildings. BSD to consider signposting to Practical Guidance for Fire Safety in Existing High Rise Domestic Buildings. Typical sign for new high rise domestic building now requires two stairs – sign to be updated.  Members content with proposals  

Action Point (AP) 6: SG to consider type of lift identification, signposting to Practical Guidance for Fire Safety in Existing High Rise Domestic Buildings and amend the typical sign for new high rise domestic building to clearly show two stairs.   

Any Other Business

The next meeting will take place on Tuesday 28 May at 11:00.
    
Members discussed small hotels since this aspect was not closed off earlier in the conversation.  Visit Scotland do not differentiate hotels by size. One member felt that around 15-20 bedrooms could be classed as a small hotel since the average number of rooms in a hotel in Scotland is 35. Small hotels can also present complex layouts and risks. No consensus was reached, further consideration is required.

Attendees and apologies

 

Chair

• Peter Wilkinson, Pyrology Ltd

 

Members

• Craig Donnelly, Local Authority Building Standards Scotland (LABSS)
• Lila Angelaka, Historic Environment Scotland (HES) - online
• Simon Montgomery, HES - online.
• Angus Law, Edinburgh University
• Stewart Kidd, British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association (BAFSA) - online
• Fionnuala McKinney, Building Regulations, Northern Ireland Government - online
• Andrew Nicholson, The Fire Surgery - online
• Charles-Elie Romeyer, Building Safety Regulator, HSE - online
• Paul Keepins, Building regulations, Welsh Government - online
• Neil McDougall, NLM Consultancy - online
• Peter Drummond, Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland (RIAS)
• Jim McGonigal, Scotland Branch of the Institution of Fire Engineers (SIFE)
• Colin Todd, CS Todd and Associates - online
• Edith McDowall – Optimal Economics
• Alastair Perry BAFSA - online.

 

Scottish Government Officials

• Stephen Garvin, Deputy Director, Building Standards Division
• Lisel Porch, Safer Communities Division online.
• Chris Booth, Safer Communities Division online.
• James Clark, Safer Communities Division
• Steven Scott, Building Standards Division - online.
• Colin Hird, Building Standards Division

 

Apologies

• Benny Rooney, Building Standards Division
• Steven Corrigan, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS)
• Chris Getty, (SFRS)
• Sharon McLure, Association for Specialist Fire Protection (ASFP)
• Sean Cairns, Thistle Trade Group
• Damien Fairley, Northern Ireland Government
• Andrew Watters, Safer Communities Division
• Samantha MacCuish, Federation of Master Builders