Building and fire safety - ministerial working group: Grenfell inquiry phase 2 minutes: January 2025

• Chair - Minister for Housing
• Minister for Victims and Community Safety (MVCS)
• Chris Ashurst (CA), Chair, High Rise Scotland Action Group
• Scott McKenzie (SM), Local Authority Building Standards Scotland
• Jonathan Henderson (JH), Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
• Chris Getty, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
• Professor Luke Bisby (LB), University of Edinburgh
• Hywel Davies (HD)
• Peter Drummond (PD), RIAS
• Mike Callaghan (MC), COSLA
• Tony Cain (TC), ALACHO
• Bill Connolly (BC), NHS Assure
• Robert Scott, HM Fire Service Inspectorate
• Stephen Garvin (SGa), DD, Building Standards Division (BSD)
• Lisa Goldie (LG), Head of Construction Procurement Policy Unit
• Neil Mitchell (NM), Head Development Unit, BSD
• Steven Scott (SS), Head Technical Unit, BSD
• Colette Templeton (CT), Development Unit, BSD
• Tom Hardy, Fire and Rescue Unit
• Lisel Porch (LP), Fire and Rescue Unit
• Chris Booth, Fire and Rescue Unit
• Joanne Boyle, Cladding Remediation
• Cameron Murdoch, Development Unit, BSD
• Frank Doherty, Development Unit, BSD
• Alan Rodden, Practice Unit, BSD
• Colin Hird, Technical Unit, BSD
• Scott Young, Technical Unit, BSD
• Lester MacDonald, (LMc) Civil Contingencies Division
• Sandy Robinson, Planning, Architecture and Regeneration Division

Apologies

• Kenny Barbour (KB), SFRS
• Anne Cook (AC), Better Homes Division
• Benny Rooney, Technical Unit, BSD

Items and actions

Welcome

The Chair welcomed everyone to the fourth meeting of the Group and provided an overview of the items on todays agenda.

 

Meeting Business

CT covered the business from the last meeting held on 12 December 2024. The Group were asked for any comments.

• All members present agreed the note of the last meeting.
• Actions set out in Paper MWG-GI2 13 have all been completed.

 

Fire Safety and Firefighting

LP presented paper MWG-GI2 14 on Recommendation 57: Personal Emergency Evacuation Plans (PEEPs).

The paper provides detail on the Responsible Person role in England set out under the Fire Safety (England) Regulations 2022 and MHCLG’s plans for the introduction of ‘Residential PEEPS’ following the Ministerial statement in September 2024 by the Under Secretary of State for Building Safety and Homelessness.

The introduction of PEEPs in Scotland was discussed and members were asked for views and feedback on the three options detailed in the paper. MVCS asked how PEEPS has been introduced in England and Wales. There is a difference in building tenure in Scotland and roles and responsibilities of building Factors was recognised. Clarifying the role of the Responsible Person as set out in England TH provided detail in the meeting chat on guidance from UKG in relation to the control of premises in connection with carrying on a business. This will, typically, be the freeholder or the managing agents for the block, or, for example, a residents’ management company. If any part of the building is a workplace, the employer of persons employed to work in that workplace will be a Responsible Person. This can occur if, for example, a concierge is employed, or parts of the building are used for commercial purposes. So, there may be circumstances in which there is more than one Responsible Person within the same building. However, even in these circumstances, overall control of the building most commonly rests with the freeholder, managing agents or a residents’ management company.

MVCS asked for an update on the position of the high-rise building inventory established in Scotland, following the Grenfell Tower fire to record the location and details of all residential buildings in Scotland up to 18m. The meeting discussed the Fire information leaflet prepared and distributed throughout Scotland to raise safety awareness in the aftermath of the fire with MVCS supporting a renewed campaign and would welcome regular fire safety awareness raising measures.

CA provided detail on the measures taken within his own building to provide communal information as well as information on fire safety to owners and tenants. The need for building users to take ownership and to read information was also discussed. It was also important to provide information in different languages to support accessibility across a range of tenants and owners. The responsibility of factors and agents and circumstances where responsibility is split needs to be considered. The Chair reminded members the importance of learning from other incidents and making positive change to reduce risks in the future.
In terms of next steps, the meeting discussed the options presented in the paper. Members agreed that Option 3 and the potential to amend and/or introduce legislation to ensure there is a ‘Responsible Person’ in every high-rise domestic building is the preferred option. It will however take time to bring legislation forward and as such Option 2 – Awareness Raising Campaigns should also by taken forward as an immediate response.
TC advised members that work being taken forward on changes to regulations on short-term lets may provide an opportunity to introduce fire safety requirements. The Chair advised that this work is within his portfolio, and he will raise with officials.
RS raised the need to ensure that whatever solution is introduced and information collected needs to be kept up to date and consistent across all properties. This is important for fire teams visiting the building and responding to emergencies. JH advised that discussion on PEEPs around the introduction and need for them is being considered at a national level within the Fire Service. Output from this will be used to inform discussion at a Scotland level.

Action:

• FRU to consider next steps to take forward options agreed.
• Cladding Directorate to provide an update on the status of the high-rise building inventory.
• Minister for Housing to discuss with officials the opportunity to include fire safety requirements as part of work being taken forward on short-term lets.

 

Update on Progress: BSD

NM presented paper MWG-GI2 15 on Recommendations 24, 25 and 28: Assorted Theme.

Recommendation 24 is in relation to the proposal that the construction regulator sponsor the development of a [construction] library, perhaps as part of a joint project with the University of Queensland, to provide a continuing resource for designers. This comes from evidence considered by the Inquiry on the Cladding Materials Library supported by the University of Queensland and funded by the Australian Government.

The proposal is that the development of a library is supported at a national level however there may be potential for Scotland to deliver a resource of this nature dependant on cost and ownership.

Members discussed the library resource. PD reminded members that, in most cases, it is not the product details themselves that are in question but the methods and workmanship that bring them together. Having the correct specification does not always support compliant outcomes and it is the actions of bringing the details together that require focus.

LB agreed with the issues raised by PD advising that he did not fully agree with the proposal for a national library following the approach taken in Queensland. The Queensland library provided detail on products that had been tested in insolation. In regard to testing cladding products these had focused on the product (or products constituent materials) with no interaction with other materials and products explicitly considered. There is also the need for further education pf professionals and a credible assessment system on the use of products to be in place. The recommendation for a library is only useful if there is a community of professionals capable of using information derived for products in the correct way when applied within systems. Expertise within the profession needs to be carefully considered with the need for experience in practice of how information and testing results are used when constructing buildings. LB advised that work was being undertaken by Edinburgh University on a programme to support the assessment of external wall products when used in conjunction with other product systems.

HD expressed concern about the product information labelling system. Products that claim to comply with a standard of specification should have to demonstrate evidence of that compliance and provide access to that evidence in product information. The cost of demonstrating compliance should be the responsibility of the product manufacturer.

Further consideration is required on this recommendation and members views were welcomed.

AR / FD presented paper MWG-GI2 16 on Recommendations 1,2, 20 – 23 Regulation /Delivery /System Theme.

Recommendation 1 was that the UKG should draw together under a single regulator all the functions relating to the construction industry. Problems identified in the report indicated that systemic failings resulted from a lack of oversight that building regulations and statutory guidance were fit for purpose and that commercial interests were given greater importance than the rigour of the system in its aim of protecting the public. Recommendations 22 and 23 relate to improving impartiality by the bodies delivering the building control system through the potential appointment of an independent panel to review whether or not it is in the public interest for building control functions to be performed by those who have a commercial interest in the process.

AR advised that the building standards system in Scotland is pre-emptive and as such the shortcomings identified in these recommendations were not a feature of the Scottish system. It was recognised that testing of this robustness can be undertaken with the potential to look at the effectiveness of the pre-emptive system.

Recommendations 2, 20 and 21 all relate in the first instance to higher risk buildings. FD provided a summary of the work being taken forward through the work of the Building Standards Futures Board Compliance Plan Approach workstream to address issues.

PD advised the meeting that RIAS is a member of the Compliance Plan Working Group and supporting the work being taken forward. The Construction (Design and Management) Regulations (CDM) have been in place since 1994 and their effectiveness has, over the years diminished and resulted mainly in adding costs to projects. It is important that we make sure that we do not repeat this mistake.

The meeting discussed who would be responsible for compliance statements in the building warrant process and the penalties for false statement and the mechanisms in place to hold people to account. FD advised that work has also been undertaken to strengthen enforcements and sanctions. This will be reported to the next Compliance Plan Working Group and to the Futures Board at its next meeting in April. LB advised that he would be keen to learn more about the work to consider how well the pre-emptive system operates in Scotland.

TC commented that compliance requires someone to look at the work before it's covered up to confirm that it complies and is completed competently. That will require enough inspectors to go out and do those inspections. As already noted, the evidence is clear that we cannot rely on commercial enterprises to be honest in certifying the safety and competence of their work.

Further consideration of this is required.

Actions:

• BSD to approach Edinburgh University for information in relation to the work being taken forward on assessment of cladding materials.
• Members to provide feedback on the recommendation to create a central library.

 

Update on Progress: Civil Contingencies

LMac presented paper MWG-GI2 17 on Recommendations 42 - 56: Resilience and local authorities Theme.

Recommendations 42 – 56 are the result of evidence to the Inquiry which, as far as the Inquiry is concerned, demonstrates a lack of care on behalf of the Local Authority to have regard for its duties under the Civil Contingencies Act and ensure that sufficient plans and arrangements were in place to deal with a civil emergency.

LMac reported that the Scottish Government Resilience Room coordinate responses to civil emergencies with lines of approval shorter than in England. With the Minister and Cabinet Secretary of Justice attending meetings of the Scottish Resilience Group.

Work is being undertaken to strengthen resilience on a number of areas and detail has been provided in the paper. Where action has still to begin this will extend
beyond March 2025 and LMac advised members that this is being scheduled to be taken forward from April 2025. A more detailed update will be provided at February meeting.

CA said that he had spoken with faith and community groups at Grenfell and would welcome a discussion with LMac.

Action:

• LMac to arrange a discussion with CA on impact of resilience on faith and community.

 

Update on Progress: Construction Procurement Policy

LG and SGa presented paper MWG-GI2 18 on Recommendations 3 and 4 and Issue 2.

Recommendation 4 is for the creation of the role of Chief Construction Adviser (CCA). The need for this role was considered by the Scottish Government in 2013 during the Review of Scottish Public Sector Procurement in Construction. It was considered unnecessary at that time.

LG reported that an initial analysis in the context of the Scottish Construction landscape is being undertaken which will also consider the current structures in place within the Scottish Government. A report will be provided at the February meeting setting out the further work and a recommendation on the need to appoint a CCA.

Issue 2 was the Prime Ministers statement in the UK Parliament following the publication of the Grenfell Phase 2 Inquiry Report that companies named in the report would be barred from government contracts. It is not yet clear the legal or practical basis on which the UKG intends to stop such companies from being awarded public contracts. Advice from Scottish Government Legal Department notes that blanket bans on specific companies competing for public contracts would not be permitted in current procurement legislation. Scottish public bodies are however open to consider the terms of the Inquiry’s findings and reach a view on whether these amounted to evidence of a ground for exclusion (such as grave professional misconduct), any decision to exclude such companies would have to be taken by the individual authority on a case-by-case basis.

UKG have issued warning letters to all named companies. New procurement legislation which is effective from February may have an impact and this will be monitored. Further updates will be provided when clarity on the UK Government’s proposed approach becomes available.

HD asked is there any scope to add an assessment criteria declaration on past conduct and behaviour to the procurement process that could be considered when tenders for work are being considered. While there is no mechanism for grave misconduct to be declared companies must be able to provide references to show actions over recent projects.

Recommendation 3 covers the proposal that the UKG bring responsibility for the functions relating to fire safety currently exercised by MHCLG, the Home Office and the Department for Business and Trade into one department under a single Secretary of State. SGa advised that connection between policy areas in Scotland were already well connected and liaise on a regular basis. The Ministerial Working Group on Building and Fire Safety (MWG-BFS) constituted in the aftermath of Grenfell continues to serve a function around coordination and direction on relevant policy. Subject to Ministerial agreement options will be prepared for a reset role for the working group so that it remains fit for purpose in the future. This change can be brought forward in the short-term, with changes occurring over 2025. The Minister and meeting agreed this proposal.

Action:

• Following on from SG’s response report options for the future role and remit of the Building and Fire Safety Ministerial Working Group will be proposed.

 

Situation Report

SGa provided an overview on the recommendations not covered by a separate paper or update at today’s meeting. Officials are continuing to engage with stakeholders to progress responses for each recommendation.

BSD are organising an event under the Futures Board to consider the recommendations from the Grenfell Phase 2 Report focussing on construction change. The event will bring together members of the Futures Board, SG, Local Authority Building Standards, Scottish Building Standards Hub and other main Stakeholders and is being held on Tuesday 28 January. Output from the event will be used to shape the response to the Grenfell report. As well as a number of cross cutting issues for example competence there will also be a strong focus on culture which plays a significant role across industry.

SGa updated members on the meeting that took place with Kate Grange, KC to the Grenfell Inquiry.

 

Next Steps and requirements for draft response

SGa advised members that officials were still working to provide a response within the set 6-month timeline. It will be difficult to publish a report ahead of UKG and close contact will be required with them in the coming months particularly on reserved issues. There is an awareness that MHCLG have been running a number of stakeholder events over December and January. Further updates will be provided at the February meeting.

SGa invited members to provide written papers covering their views and if further meetings were required to please get in touch.

PD advised that a paper from RIAS will be sent within the next few days to assist the MWG.

 

Any Other Competent Business

No matters of business were raised. The date of the next meetings are:

• 26 February 2025
• 27 March 2025

 

Actions

1. FRU to consider next steps to take forward options agreed.
2. BSD to provide an update on the status of the high-rise building inventory.
3. Minister for Housing to discuss with official opportunity to include fire safety requirements as part of work being taken forward on short-term lets.
4. BSD to approach Edinburgh University for information in relation to the work being taken forward on assessment of cladding materials.
5. Members to provide feedback on the recommendation to create a central library.
6. LMac to arrange a discussion with CA on impact of resilience on faith and community.
7. Following on from SG’s response report options for the future role and remit of the Building and Fire Safety Ministerial Working Group will be proposed.