Building and fire safety - ministerial working group: Grenfell inquiry phase 2 minutes: November 2024

• Chair - Minister for Housing
• Minister for Victims and Community Safety
• Chris Ashurst, Chair of the High Rise Scotland Action Group
• Scott McKenzie, Local Authority Building Standards Scotland
• Chris Getty, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
• Jonathan Henderson, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
• Professor Luke Bisby, University of Edinburgh
• Hywel Davies (HD)
• Peter Drummond, RIAS
• Mike Callaghan, COSLA
• Tony Cain (TC), ALACHO
• Stephen Garvin (SGa), DD, Building Standards Division (BSD)
• Neil Mitchell (NM), Head Development Unit, BSD
• Steven Scott (SS), Head Technical Unit, BSD
• Colette Templeton (CT), Development Unit, BSD
• Alan Rodden, Practice Unit, BSD
• Chris Booth, Fire and Rescue Unit
• Lisel Porch, Fire and Rescue Unit
• Joanne Boyle, Cladding Remediation
• Cameron Murdoch, Development Unit, BSD
• Benny Rooney, Technical Unit, BSD
• Scott Young, Technical Unit, BSD
• Katie Ogilvie, Cladding Remediation
• Ruth Whatling, Better Homes
• Sandy Robinson, PARD
• Sarah Waugh, Development Unit, BSD

Apologies

• Graham Porteous, Head Construction Procurement
• Lester McDonald, Head Partnership and Resilient Communities

Items and actions

1. Welcome and Introductions

The Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting of the Ministerial Working Group (Grenfell), noting the new members he thanked them for joining the group and asked them to introduce themselves.

Tony Cain and Hywel Davies advised that they need to leave the meeting at 9.30am and 10:00am respectively.

 

2. Meeting Business

CT covered the business from the last meeting held on 12 September 2024.

• All members present agreed the note of the last meeting.
• Actions were set out in Paper MWG-GI2 03. All have been completed.
• The TOR has been re-issued for today’s meeting. At September’s meeting the Chair asked that an emphasis on culture be included in the TOR.  This has been considered further recognising the need for a change in culture of behaviours while not explicit in the TOR it will be embedded in the work we take forward.  The TOR will be finalised after today’s meeting.

Chair opened the meeting to members leaving early to provide any comments. TC advised that the main concern for ALACHO is the need to change culture within the construction industry particularly the need to embed a safety culture. Fire safety remains a concern and the issue within existing homes has not yet been resolved without even beginning to focus on high-risk buildings. Evidence presented through the social landlord buy back scheme where properties do not meet the smoke detector requirements demonstrates that the legislation around the need for interlinked fire detectors has not had the intended impact. Additionally, information provided by fire safety teams would benefit from further scrutiny to understand issues better.

SGa advised that he attended a recent housing stakeholder meeting with colleagues from the Housing Teams. Issues raised by TC will be considered by this group. While there are no specific recommendations for housing there is the need to consider the findings of the report in the context of the housing sector particularly in relation to the public sector.

Action

• Issues in relation to interlinking fire detectors in social housing to be raised with the Housing Stakeholders Group. (Housing Team)

 

3. Situation Report

SGa presented Paper MWG-GI2 05.

The paper provides a summary of activity and actions being taken forward by officials to consider the recommendations. Recommendations have been split by theme and topic and two themes have been identified in relation to Housing (Issue 1) and Procurement – banning of companies (Issue 2).

Officials are now working through the recommendations, with input from partner organisations. Consideration is being given to the Scottish context and identifying the extent to which they are devolved or reserved. Considerable work is already ongoing in Scotland through the work of the Building Standards Futures Board and any gaps will be identified.

A review of the progress was provided across each theme. In relation to Issue 2 Procurement and the Prime Ministers statement on banning companies involved in the Grenfell Tower a written update was provided by Graham Porteous.

The potential to introduce a ban in Scotland would not be permitted under the Public Contracts (Scotland) Regulations 2015. SG are investigating if the UKG position depends on the introduction of the new Procurement Act 2023 which was due to come into force October 2024 but has recently pushed back to February 2025. That act extends the list of exclusion grounds applicable to procurement exercises, and also creates a “debarment list” with powers for Ministers of the Crown to place suppliers which meet an exclusion ground on a published debarment list which all contracting authorities must take into account for regulated procurements. Further discussions will take place on this matter with UKG Officials.

We understand that the Cabinet Office has now written to companies involved in Grenfell, but we have been unable as yet to obtain copies of the correspondence as “commercial confidentiality” is being cited.

SGa advised that discussions have taken place in October with the UKG Building Safety Regulator as part of a scheduled ‘four nations’ meeting on the Grenfell recommendations. The BSR is central to the UKG’s response, and it is likely to be January 2025 before they or MHCLG (UKG lead) can share further details on their plans.  Some discussions have taken place on whether a proposed Interministerial Group Meeting in December would be centered around the Grenfell report. Ministers will be kept updated.

The Chair thanks SGa for the update advising that he was staying connected with the Ministerial team in UKG and will provide updates when needed.

Chair invited HD for his contribution. HD advised that his main concerns were in relation to Evacuation – particularly recommendations 57 and 58. He noted that the BSI Committee responsible for ‘BS 750:2023 Underground fire hydrants. Surface box frames and covers – Specification’ had already met to consider and review a further meeting would be held before Christmas.

HD said that in his view there is a cross-cutting issue between PEEPS (Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan) and the technical standards. He advised that there are an increasing number of people who struggle to use stairs and under the Equality Act there are several protected characteristics. As a result, technical guidance in the UK needs to be reviewed.

The other big issue is the recommendation to put in place a single body for testing and certification of products. This could result in a number of unintended consequences and have implications on manufacturing as the Constructions Product Regulations (CPR) (soon to be updated) underpins the certification regime. Consideration needs to be given to avoid any conflict with the EU regime while the issues are practical rather than constitutional, change may risk product withdrawal and supply chain disruption.

SGa agreed close working with colleagues in UKG is needed so we understand UKG approach and how these sits in the context of CPR and product labelling regime.

Ministers agreed to add to a future agenda with UKG Ministers.

Action

• CPR and product labelling to be discussed at Ministerial level with UKG. (Private Office)

 

4. External Members

The Chair invited external members for contributions.

• SFRS (Jon Henderson / Chris Getty)

High-Rise Continuation Group and the Strategic Management Group considering 16 recommendations. Gap analysis undertaken which showed the service is in a good position in regard to the recommendations. Work progresses and will be reported at the next meeting.

• LABSS (Scott McKenzie)

LABSS are heavily supporting improvements being introduced through the work of the Building Standards Futures Board. The establishment of the Scottish Building Standards Hub is one of Boards outcomes. Meeting with BSD scheduled for 13 November. Recognising the need for a culture change consider that verifiers need to focus on reintroducing and reinforcing their responsibility as a regulator.  

SGa advised he attended a recent Building Safety Regulatory Committee meeting, and a key topic was the need for culture change. In Scotland, Scottish Futures Trust has a strong focus on culture through the work on the Construction Quality Improvement Collaborative and wider industry transformation. Discussions will take place with SFT to link this work.

• HRSAG (Chris Ashurst)

Of particular concern is the response process of all involved parties when emergency situations happen and the need to have in place a clear and detailed protocol for responding services so that roles and responsibilities are clear for everyone, including residents. Potential for the development of official response templates for housing blocks or similar budlings over 11 metres.

Discussion took place on the lessons learned and the protocols in place across public organisations in Scotland when dealing with emergency situations. The meeting agreed that there is opportunity to add and refine processes and this is something for further consideration by the SG Resilience Team.

• Professor Luke Bisby, University of Edinburgh

The Grenfell Inquiry Phase 2 Report and the recommendations are clear and were not intended to be interpretated. Work now needs to focus on applying, where appropriate the recommendation and just because it may be difficult is not a reason not to try.

Key issue is culture change and how this is achieved. Appreciates the difference in Scotland compared to England and Wales, but there is still scope for change which should be focused on product, projects, and people and how we regulate for these.

Some of these aspects have already been considered under the Cladding Bill.

• RIAS (Peter Drummond)

RIAS support and endorse agree all recommendations. Recognised that there have been over 45 years of deregulatory failure in England and Wales and change will take time. Scotland need to learn from this. Three areas of concern for RIAS:

1. knowledge and training gap of all construction professional. With increasing numbers of unregulated designers being used by developers.
2. culture particularly procurement and the culture of lowest price and low fees need urgent action.
3. Products and testing. There is a need for access to reliable data.

 

• COSLA (Mike Callaghan)

Advised that SOLACE have the responsibility for leading on emergency planning and will support the wider work going forward. Acknowledge the significant political issues on RAAC and Cladding.

The Chair thanked everyone for their contributions.  Further consideration will be given to the points raised and SGa invited members to submit written contributions on the issues they have raised today.

Action:

• To contact SFT and explore joint working on changing culture. (BSD Team)
• Consideration to be given to reviewing and updating protocols in place for public sector responding to and dealing with emergency situations. (Resilience Team).

 

Any other business

No other business was discussed.

Date of next meeting: Thursday 12 December 2024

Actions

1. Issues in relation to interlinking fire detectors in social housing to be raised with the Housing Stakeholders Group. (Housing Team)
2. CPR and product labelling to be discussed at Ministerial level with UKG. (Private Office)
3. To contact SFT and explore joint working on changing culture. (BSD Team)
4. Consideration to be given to reviewing and updating protocols in place for public sector responding to and dealing with emergency situations. (Resilience Team)