Publication - Minutes

Convention of the Highlands and Islands minutes: March 2023

Published: 27 July 2023
Directorate: Jobs and Wellbeing Economy Directorate
Topic: Economy
Date of meeting: 27 March 2023

Minutes from the meeting of the group on 27 March 2023.

Attendees and apologies

Attendees

Stuart Black, Highlands and Islands Enterprise
Raymond Bremner, Highland Council
Amanda Bryan, Crown Estate Scotland
Malcolm Burr, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar
Rob Dickson, VisitScotland
Alistair Dodds, Highlands and Islands Enterprise
Jenny Gilruth, Scottish Government
Alan Hill, North Ayrshire Council
Andrew Kain, Argyll and Bute Council
Bill Lobban, Highland Council
Alastair MacColl, University of the Highlands and Islands
Ealasaid MacDonald, MG ALBA
Emma Macdonald, Shetland Islands Council
Mary MacInnes, Bòrd na Gàidhlig
Malcolm Mathieson, Crofting Commission
Mary McAllan, Scottish Government
Russell McCutcheon, North Ayrshire Council
Lisa McDonald, Scottish Government
Frank Mitchell, Skills Development Scotland
Grant Moir, Cairngorms National Park Authority
Kathleen Robertson,Moray Council
Gary Robinson, NHS Shetland
Paul Steele, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar
James Stockan, Orkney Islands Council
John Swinney, Scottish Government

Items and actions

Agenda

09:30 – 09:40 Welcome and Review of Previous Outcomes
09:40 – 09:55 Update from Regional Economic Partnership
09:55 – 10:25 Opportunities of UCI Championship
10:25 – 10:55 Ferries
5 minute break
11:00 – 11:30 Gaelic
11:30 – 12:00 Repopulation
12:00 – 12:30 Lunch
12:30 – 14:10 Housing Deep Dive
Key challenges and Rural Action Plan

Focus 1: Land Usage
Focus 2: Employer Voice
Focus 3: Student Accommodation
Drawing discussion together and next steps

14:10 – 14:20 Break
14:20 – 14:30 Overview of Outcomes
14:30 – 14:35 Closing Remarks

Start of Transcript

The common theme of all strategic policy in the Western Isles, and not just in the Western Isles, is population retention and growth. We have seen greater population stability in recent years than in many previous, but the trend is still downwards, particularly as regards working-age population. These are issues common to all of rural Scotland and indeed all rural Europe, but it's a task of government to find policy answers and options which change predictions and trends and are not just governed by them. Critical to this work is the presence and availability of affordable and attractive housing, reflecting whatever land use patterns operate in our separate areas, whether crofting in established settlements or in addressing special needs such as extra care. Our system of planning and consent must support population retention and growth, not discourage it.

The Scottish Government has been generous to the Western Isles with its housing resource allocation. The problem, as it were, of spending it is a challenge we're delighted to have. Again I acknowledge the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Shona Robison, to support greater flexibility in supporting use of the HRA funding. But again we need to see greater pace of change and new, time-limited action points so we can collectively make a real impact on what's perceived in many quarters as a housing crisis across the Highlands and Islands.

Every item on today's agenda - the visitor economy, transport, Gaelic and, as [Rick] said, housing - are key elements to successful delivery of our strategies of population retention and growth. Too many policy initiatives are still viewed in relative isolation. For our islands and many other parts of rural Highlands and Islands, it's an integrated policy approach which is required. Policies may be sectoral, but their impact is across the board. One of the purposes and advantages of the convention is that it brings local authorities, agencies and ministers together in an atmosphere where these essential links can be reflected on and that policy choices can be influenced towards collective good. I look forward to an interesting, useful and productive day with some clear and measurable actions coming out of the reports, supporting the collective goal of strengthening our communities and services which support them. Thank you very much.

John Swinney:

Thank you very much. Thanks very much, Paul. Thank you very much to the Ceòlas and to colleagues for this very kind gift which I will treasure.

As you say, Paul, I have chaired every meeting of the Convention of the Highlands and Islands since 2007. When I first came here in 2007 with very limited experience of government, some faces were around the table. Alistair Dodds was here from Highland Council, Chief Executive at the time. I remember breezing into the Ballachulish Hotel. I was at the height of trying to negotiate the Concordat with local government. My heart was warmed by a conversation with Sandy Park - your Council Convenor at the time, Alistair - who told me that he'd been briefed about these emerging discussions and was very, very supportive of it. I thought to myself, this is really good news, because if the independent group in COSLA are supporting my Concordat and the SNP group, that's probably about enough votes to force the Labour Party to come along with it. Hence the Concordat was born.

But I tell that story because of what has been one element of the convention, and what I've viewed as to being a real great asset for me in chairing this over all these years, has been the ability to have informal dialogue with political and organisational leaders across the Highlands and Islands to understand the issues and the challenges and how we can weave our common purpose together. For me that's been time really well spent over all these meetings. It's been a personal joy to move these meetings around the Highlands and Islands. It's been an enormous professional privilege to understand the different perspectives that people bring to these discussions and to try to help to weave them together in common purpose. That's been, I think, to the strength of the delivery of policy and service within the Highlands and Islands, because good things have happened because of discussions around about this table that ordinarily wouldn't happen without these discussions.

I think also one other thing which - when I came to our first Convention of the Highlands and Islands, it was awful stilted. Everyone had a script. It all got read out and we all made big speeches to each other. But we only had that for one meeting. We replaced it by frank, candid conversation. It's been the better for that. I want to thank those here today and past and present for all of that frankness and candid conversation, because I think it has really helped to create stronger bonds between the aspirations of people in the Highlands and Islands and what is possible through the support of the Scottish Government and other organisations.

Paul made a really important point in his contribution about the need for organisations not to operate in compartments. Yes, money's tight for everybody. We all know it's tight. It's tight for the government. It's tight for public bodies. It's tight for local authorities. Nobody is operating in a climate of abundance. How we make that money go further will be helped by the conversations that take place around about tables of this type and just to be flexible as we can about how we use money together in the - and Paul made the important observation that it was about the impact on areas, not organisations. I think that's a sentiment I would encourage very strongly that - there is still a lot of public money spent in individual areas. We just have to try to make sure it goes a bit further than has been the case in the past.

Then my final observation in these points of reflection are about the whole concept of integrated policy. I think I've spent most of my time as a Minister - this is my last commitment as a Minister today - railing against compartmentalisation. There's been so many good examples where we've actually managed to achieve more because people have left their compartments behind and gone forward in shared endeavour. This building is an example of that. The Stornoway Deep Water Port is another example of that, which will have huge economic implications for the Western Isles. Joined together the interests of tourism, the energy sector, the maritime sector. Huge economic opportunities. But it wouldn't happen if Stornoway Port Authority had stayed in its compartment and HIE had stayed in its compartment and the government had stayed in its compartment and the Ceòlas had stayed in its compartment. It's happening because people have come out and taken bold decisions.

I suppose that's a really big and important reflection from me on where integrated policymaking can help to achieve better outcomes. We'll come on to a lot of that in the thinking around about the Regional Economic Partnership update that we get.

When I knew what was happening on 27 March, I considered what is the right thing to do? Is it to cancel the Convention of the Highlands and Islands since I shall be departing from office tomorrow? Or is it to come here and basically continue the dialogue and encourage that dialogue? I can't think of a finer way to end my ministerial career than ending it at the Convention of the Highlands and Islands on such an absolutely stunning day in South Uist in Lochboisdale, having travelled here on a CalMac ferry that got in on time.

Paul Steele:

All right. Thank you very much. Again you're hearing my voice and it's going to be for a little while there.

The REP, Regional Economic Partnership, has met twice since the last meeting of the convention. It's engaged with several topics critical to the Highlands and Islands. These have included the regional economic policy review, Highlands and Islands Enterprise new draft strategic framework, the new subsidy control regime, Active Travel Transformation and a greenhouse gas baseline study for the Highlands and Islands.

Housing is a recurrent issue for the REP. At our last meeting, we discussed the establishment of a new REP housing subgroup to explore how housebuilding can be accelerated across the Highlands and Islands, how barriers presently hampering economic development can be removed. This emerged from a discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, which was attended by myself and the Chair of Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Discussion with government and local partners are presently ongoing regarding the terms of reference for that subgroup. Given that housing is the main agenda item this afternoon, I will leave further comments on that until then, but I would hope the establishment of a subgroup is an outcome that can be endorsed by the convention.

The REP Senior Officers Group held an NSET workshop that focused on regional alignment with NSET with the session concluding with a focus on potential areas of regional collaboration and action. Further workshop sessions are planned to allow officials to develop REP action plan. I hope we will see that first iteration of that work at the next meeting of the REP.

The REP considered the Scottish Government's regional economic policy review and its recommendations. These recommendations were broadly welcomed. Particularly welcome was the commentary around greater regional autonomy which will be essential if we are to drive forward key regional opportunities. Statements in the review around policy alignment, joined-up funding decisions and portfolio coordination were viewed as having the potential to improve place-based approaches and regional development. Also welcome was the potential for Regional Intelligence Hubs which will provide an opportunity to develop a greater evidence base to inform regional responses.

HIE's new draft strategic framework was considered by the REP in a workshop-style session chaired by HIE's Chief Executive. The session provided an overview of the draft strategy, covering regional strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats and the newly proposed strategic framework. Commentary was provided by REP members around key issues such as population, labour, skills, entrepreneurship and the critical enabling infrastructure such as transport, digital connectivity and housing. The REP was in broad agreement with [SWOT] and objectives within the draft framework.

The REP considered a paper around subsidy control, which summarised recent changes. There was agreement around the benefits of developing schemes on a consistent basis and [designed to meet] regional priorities. It was agreed to establish a Short Life Working Group to share understanding of the new regime, to develop a consistent response when dealing with mutual clients and to develop our priorities to ensure the regime was used effectively for the Highlands and Islands.

Proposals for a regional delivery model for active travel delivery was also discussed by the REP. It was agreed that there was an opportunity to work with regional transport planning groups on developing a model that will emphasise delivery at a local level with local authorities as the main infrastructure delivery partner but with governance, accountability, programming and reporting developed regionally, supported by the REP and other delivery partners such as Transport Scotland.

The REP considered a paper setting out work being undertaken by HIE to compile to a greenhouse gas inventory for the region [and are working] to develop an understanding of the emissions profile of the region to inform policies and interventions that can support a just transition to net zero. A key component of the work include regional, local authority and sectoral greenhouse gas inventories, carbon sequestration potential and an overview of the regional contribution to national renewable energy generation. This will quantify the importance of the renewable energy sector to the region. It was agreed this would be a valuable piece of work. That should build on pre-existing local datasets to inform the regional picture.

A critical issue that came up at the last REP meeting was the proposals coming forward from government around Highly Protected Marine Areas. It's understood that the present consultation does not focus on site selection but on the broad concept. The idea of a total ban on virtually all activity within an HPMA has, however, been met with anger and incredulity across the region, particularly in island, remote and peripheral communities.

To my mind, there are three important strands to the future of the Highlands and Islands. People need to be able to get here. Transport is an important part of today's agenda. They need to be able to live here. Housing is rightly a focal point of our discussions today. They need to be able to work here. That's the focus of everyone involved in the REP. All of these strands are inextricably linked.

Then of course, there are significant landmark events that take place within the Highlands and Islands locality, not least of which the events that take place at Fort William and the world of mountain biking and with the forthcoming hosting of the UCI 2023 Cycling World Championships, downhill mountain biking, which is not an enterprise I will be taking up in my partial retirement, having watched it from the comfort of the ground, Mike Cantlay, in years gone by. However exciting it is for the visitor economy, it's not turned my head, I have to say, for personal participation.

Rob, you're going to take us through the paper that we've got on this. Thanks.

Rob Dickson:

Thank you, DFM. Good morning, everybody. It hasn't turned my head either, but we may come on to that. You've got the paper. I'm just going to provide some words of introduction and perhaps background and context just prior to the discussion. Next slide.

This slide reflects the conversation you've just had. It connects the regional economic policy review that government have undertaken through the partnership that you've just been talking about, the regional economic strategies and the delivery plans, growth deals and private-sector investment on the left-hand side. But on the right-hand side is our National Tourism Strategy, Scotland Outlook 2030, with that emphasis on or a vision that Scotland will be the leader in 21st-century tourism by 2030. Of course, launched unfortunately a week before we were all locked down, it was a tricky period for the first two or three years of that strategy, but we feel much more confident I think now that things are returning to normality.

Perhaps this conversation, we should treat it as an opportunity to be confident about the future of tourism and events. Particularly from our perspective presently, we would anticipate the summer coming up being much closer to what we all experienced in 2019 and perhaps ahead of where the projections were last year that it might take to 2025 to deliver international visitors back into Scotland in the volume that we had them. I think we would be disappointed if we didn't achieve that in the current year which is two years' ahead of where we thought we might be in the main part of the pandemic. Next slide.

DFM, you've just mentioned growth deals. As you rightly said, there's investment across the board in each of the growth deals for tourism. Worth pointing out these numbers are not the total numbers of projects but actually the public-sector investment. The reason I make that point is because the ability to connect that public-sector into private-sector investment has never been more important given how challenged we are in terms of public-sector finances. But we are increasingly pleased that the way in which these projects across Scotland where they apply to tourism, as well as in the Highlands and Islands, are connecting through Regional Economic Partnerships into genuine development of the tourist economy, the visitor economy - and new product being available for visitors is critically important. That's true for the authorities here and for the places represented here today as it is anywhere else in Scotland.

Again the progress being made is very positive. I was in Elgin last week and saw and discussed with officials there some of the developments in the Moray Cultural Quarter. I think is a really good example of where something pretty different is going to be provided in that part of the country. I think those sorts of initiatives are welcome. Of course, Inverness Castle is nearing fruition and I think again will be very welcome in the city centre there. Next slide.

We are - ooh, is it - yeah, that's coming. The paper emphasises the change that we think needs to be brought about in delivering Outlook 2030. This slid, and really if I asked you to focus for the tourism part on anything today, it would be this notion of reframing success to try and spread tourism in a different way around the country, to make sure that the spend that we achieve from visitors is much more locally rooted than perhaps was the case in the past. Of course, [that that] visitor economy development supports our sustainability ambitions, primarily around net zero but other facets as well, but that it satisfies not just the visitor but actually the community who are hosting that visitor and, of course, the businesses who are making that money. That's quite a big step and quite a big change in terms of thinking. Of course, in the context of events as well, that's important. Next slide, please.

Your market value as the Highlands and Islands is undiminished by the pandemic. You remain the place that is most searched for. You remain the place that is highest up the list in terms of awareness with international visitors and domestic visitors and the strength of that piece that's being developed through the Spirit of the Highlands and Islands. That project is just one small example of how strong that brand is in the marketplace. Of course, there's many, many different ways that that's represented. I don't need to dwell on that. The next slide, please. There we go.

We were particularly keen to take the opportunity, as agreed by the convention last time, to just say something about events and the importance of events. Scotland's the perfect stage for events. It's the national strategy that's in place and has been for some time internationally recognised. Of course, it has allowed us to bring many, many international events to Scotland and most notably - as you indicated, DFM - the UCI World Championships this summer. The strategic context, the policy document is being updated. With perfect timing on Friday, it was launched by the government and EventScotland for national consultation, so the consultation is now live for the review of Scotland, the Perfect Stage. We certainly hope that this conversation and the work that then goes on provides a very useful opportunity for people to feed in and update our thinking on that strategy.

The event sector actively contributes towards the ambition of not just the visitor economy but the whole economy. It has connected directly through Scotland Outlook 2030 and on to NSET. We recognise how important it is as a part of that economic development.

Of course, in supporting Scotland's events, as the paper makes clear, we have a very well-established Team Scotland approach. It has brought a wide range of events from the globally significant to the much more local. The paper sets out the emphasis on those annual events. For you in the Highlands and Islands, the most significant annual major event is the UCI Mountain Bike World Cup at Nevis Range. That's taken place for 20 years now, every year at Fort William. Brings as many as 25,000 visitors to the area, 40 per cent of which come from outside of Scotland, so again that's a significant pull. It contributes about 3.5 million to GVA.

Fair to say the event's future is not secure. I don't mean that in any sense that it's under threat, but we are at a stage of having to bid against increasingly tough competition. I think what that does is signify just how challenging the marketplace is in competing for these events and therefore the importance of having a clear view from participating authorities and others as to how that can be supported and taken forward is critically important. We know how challenging the marketplace is. It will undoubtedly require increased and broader support, including that financial infrastructure and operational investment from partners who are here today.

The strategy consultation seeks a wide range of views. It will be good to touch on some of that today. We certainly encourage you to take the opportunity to respond to the consultation in the coming months.

Then finally, just in concluding the next slide please, just something specific about UCI World Championships, 3 to 13 August this year. Biggest, most important cycling event there has been, so more participants than the Commonwealth Games. First time that world cycling's been brought together in this way to compete the whole panoply of events. The aspiration is to be very much a purpose-led event, contributing to that wide range of policy areas that we think cycling already contributes to. That's why Scottish ministers were so supportive about hosting that here. The purpose and action set out - this will be almost impossible to read, but the details are covered in the paper. But the wide spread of how we think this can help with the delivery of so much of our public health and also sport and community endeavours is important.

The events span the whole of Scotland - next slide, please - so from Fort William up here in the Highlands and Islands right down to Scottish Borders, Dumfries and Galloway with the main events hosted in Glasgow. But it is genuinely a Scotland-wide world-class event, which is significant.

It's led - next slide, please - to a raft of venue improvements that are either well underway or just being embarked on for August. We know that not only will these be important for August but also for providing that bedrock of future event capacity that we want as well, as well as much needed investment in infrastructure that benefits day-to-day use as well. That demonstrates very conclusively the spread of the fund that's been put in place for benefiting communities, so widespread across all areas. The details are included in the paper.

Probably as much as I need to say, but we hope that - the final slide, sorry - we hope that the paper and the opportunity to discuss the potential of not just tourism but particularly events and that combination of what VisitScotland do and EventScotland is particularly important in this part of the country. It's a useful opportunity to reflect on where we are. Thank you. DFM.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Rob.

Male:

Good.

John Swinney:

It's fascinating, a very welcome series of investments and commitments. Any comments, reflections from colleagues around the table on some of these themes? Yes, Raymond.

Raymond Bremner:

It always needs somebody to go first and I'm quite happy to be that person. Thanks, Rob. You've referred a few times in there about events and key events that are going on in the Highlands and Islands areas but definitely within the local authority of the Highlands. You can see the potential that there still is within the Highlands and Islands because of the fact that we have come through a period of COVID and there's been this realisation that open space is safe and that open space is a fantastic place to be. Once the people come into these areas, they realise that they actually like it and they want to come back and therefore the sustainability is there as well.

It's understanding and realising the challenge that that brings to local authorities. I don't think you're going to be surprised for me to say that, because when you look at sustaining the like of the mountain bike championships which, as the paper says, relates to - is becoming ever more challenging. There are others who are wanting in on the act as well. That means that the Highland Council and the partners that provide that have to up their game. But yeah, we - and you see that also as well with the NC500 and how popular that's become and the realisation on local authorities that the investment requirement is actually heightened. That position is one that maybe local authorities have not actually been catering for or providing for, because the necessity was not realised a number of years ago pre-COVID for that to actually take place. It was nice to work towards it but maybe not at a pace that now is required.

When you're relating to partnership working as you do in your paper and also in your presentation, it's the - and especially when you honed in on the - and you dropped it just in at the end of one of your lines [where it was] financially. But that is the key challenge, because as infrastructure and as the provision of facilities heighten at the same time as local authorities are challenged in terms of providing core service, that's where the reliance on an increasing amount of partnership working and an increasing amount of partners is required to be able to deliver these projects and to be able to see the sustainability of the income generated within the economy, not necessarily income for a local authority but for the local authority's economy in key areas. That's what I'd just like to acknowledge.

Mary MacInnes:

Thank you. Just want to say all your photographs must have been taken on one day, a day like this.

[Laughter]

Male:

It's days like this. It never rains. We know that. VisitScotland slides shows that all the time.

Mary MacInnes:

I'm here today as Chair of Bòrd na Gàidhlig. Really liked your presentation and particularly the role of the Highlands and Islands in tourism. The importance of Gaelic cannot be understated. Particularly we're talking about bringing world events and so on. Over lockdown, over a million people engaged with Gaelic over Duolingo. That's really important. Not all of them will become true Gaelic speakers, but there is an interest there. I expect - I'm confident that some of the people that will come to all these events will have brushed with Gaelic, so I would ask please don't forget. Gaelic needs to be normalised everywhere. It's just congratulations on all that lovely work. But Gaelic, particularly in the region of COHI, contributes hugely to the economy.

Also at this moment, I want to thank all of you here who talked the talk about Cnoc Soilleir for a long time, but particularly you've all come and walked the walk by being here today. That's what will stick with you is taking the journey to places like this and what it does to the soul and to the spirit and to everything. Please don't forget the role of Gaelic as you go forward. Many thanks.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Mary. Any other comments? Stuart.

Stuart Black:

Yes. Thanks, DFM.

[Over speaking]

Stuart Black:

It's just to mention to Rob the role that HIE plays in often supporting a lot of events, both local and regional. I think you also alluded to work that Jo and her team have been doing with the local community around the cruise-ship opportunity that's coming to Lewis. I think the other thing that we're trying to do is make sure that the Fort William area is as competitive as possible going forward, so we have been assisting Nevis Range with quite a bit of investment - a new hotel, for example, at the Nevis Range facility. We're determined to try and retain that world cup event in 2024. We'll continue to work in partnership with Rob and with the council on making that happen.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Stuart. James, then I'll come to Paul.

James Stockan:

Yeah. Thank you very much, DFM. Delighted to hear of these events. I think what's really important is that we build legacy beyond that. I'm particularly interested in the cycling option. I saw it crept in that we're having an event, Hoy on Hoy. Chris Hoy is coming to open our museum. But at the same time, we're trying to make people aware that there's a fantastic island to cycle on, because we've got to distribute people further and further from the centre...

Male:

Yeah.

James Stockan:

...to get the biggest bang for our buck. I think we really need to work on legacy from all of these things to make sure we don't just run an event and then have the deficit but we run an event - it has a continuum into the future to bring people. We can no longer get cars on our ferries. Will we be able to get as many bikes on as we want? I think we really need to look to see how we can boost things, because our ferries are over capacity. You can't get more people to Hoy [Speech Inaudible] in the summer.

We're looking for a bit of legacy. I'm looking to the people here on my right to support into that future to keep the legacy going after we've had an event. Thank you.

John Swinney:

Thanks, James. Paul?

Paul Steele:

Yeah. I want to echo a lot of the comments, but I won't repeat them. What Emma was saying about the smaller events, really important to us. I think national body's being supportive, open and accommodating in terms of what we can actually achieve in the Highlands and Islands. Example, the Eilean Dorcha Festival we're taking forward, the Midnight Sun festival [which is coming] to the islands. I think just being supportive and realising that we can take these things forward. We can build Cnoc Soilleir in the middle of a bog in Daliburgh. There's things we can do if we're supported.

Male:

[Speech Inaudible].

[Laughter]

Paul Steele:

Yeah. My main point though - and I suppose I'm going to try and take it back to housing, because it's going to be a substantive issue later on.

[Over speaking]

Benefits in the visitor economy are great, but they have to be balanced against the disbenefits, loss of accommodation in the private rented sector specifically. It's far easier to convert a house into a visitor accommodation, for example, than to try and satisfy complex requirements for being a private landlord. It's just something we need to be aware of. Absolutely visitor economy's really important. It's attracting people to these islands. But it's the effect it has on the people who live on the islands. Harris is probably one of the areas where we see that, especially in the Western Isles anyway, people are struggling to actually live in the communities where it's such a great tourist offering. Just wanted to raise that point.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Paul. Important perspective. Okay, any other comments? Okay, Rob, do you want to add anything just to close off?

Rob Dickson:

Yeah. Thank you. Of course, the challenge in trying to reflect all that's going on across the whole area of the Highlands and Islands is hugely difficult. We acknowledge wherever we go with the work we do at VisitScotland how critically important that partnership support is. I think, in the context of refreshing the National Events Strategy, that partnership work will be even more important. Councillor Bremner's early points reflected back by many others about the strength of that partnership work and the need to get that to be coherent and to build that in as part of how Scotland, the Perfect Stage is delivered I think should be reflected in what has been said here and in the responses that hopefully you will provide to the consultation.

Two or three smaller points I think. As somebody who was a Council Officer for quite some period before joining VisitScotland, the planning and the time period in which the capital plan is thought about is more important now than perhaps it has ever been. I think if we can link the regional economic strategies to the economic development opportunities that Alastair referred to - and I think, Alastair, your points are very, very well made in terms of what the opportunity is - then it will give us the business case as to why those capital plan investments should be made. I think the growth deals have done a great service in supporting how that work can be done and showing the way ahead. More of that should flow if we can get the regional economic strategies, across Scotland but particularly here, to be focused in the right way.

The balance between national events, international events, global events and small events and the part they play in seasonal spread cannot be overstated. Themed years have been valuable input in the recent past. There aren't any planned at present. In part that's because of the disruption of COVID. In part it's the reality of where funding is. But I think it's something that, again in feeding back in the consultation, it would be sensible if you thought that that was an opportunity to be continued to pursue that in the responses that you give. Linking that ability of small events and seasonal events to the reframing success [slide] and how we get spread and different spend is a critical point to make. I think those are probably the points that I would highlight [Speech Inaudible].

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Rob. That's a very helpful discussion. Obviously there's a good series of opportunities that arise out of this, both in terms of the significant national events but also the impact on localities and how we need to build up capacity around about that. Thank you for that.

We'll now move on to the next item which is a discussion on ferries. I'm very pleased the Transport Minister is here, Jenny Gilruth. I'll ask Jenny to open up the conversation and then we'll take comments and contributions from colleagues.

Jenny Gilruth:

Thank you, DFM. Good morning to everyone. It's lovely to be here. I see a MacRury sat round the table here and I'm wondering if we might be distantly related. The last time I was here or the time before that I think was with my mum doing my family tree, looking at my distant roots - that I've spoken to, I think, Mary MacInnes about before - in the Western Isles. Lovely to be here. I'm joined today by Ranald and by Roddy, so you will both know Ranald very well from HITRANS, no doubt. But Roddy is our new Head of Ferries in Transport Scotland, so a good opportunity for him today to talk to some of the work behind the Islands Connectivity Plan.

Now DFM and I were meeting with Gail Robertson before the meeting started in discussion with some of the challenges faced on the network at the current time. It won't come as a surprise to most folk in the room. There are a number of challenges on the network. But there are also some positives and I just want to highlight those. In the last year particularly alone, we've seen investment in the two new vessels that will be coming to Islay. We've also managed to commission an additional two new vessels that will serve the Little Minch routes, which I think is really important because we'll have a level of standardisation in the fleet that we've never seen before. We also took a decision to freeze ferry fares. I think that was the right thing to do given the disruption that island communities have faced in recent times. More recently and in good news I think, we managed to secure the charter of the MV Alfred last week, so I think that was welcome news.

Now the paper in front of you today, paper 5, talks to some of the other elements within the Islands Connectivity Plan. The draft long-term plan was published back in December. It went out to public consultation. I think Ranald and Roddy are going to say a little more on that, but I'm really keen to hear points from members today on some of the challenges, no doubt. There are a number of vessels currently facing challenges. I think you will all be well sighted on those vessels. But I'm happy to take questions on those but also I think the opportunities, because we have investment coming. I think that's an opportunity really to reframe some of the discussion around about ferries provision.

The other point I wanted to make is - there's a gentleman, I think, sat at the back here. I saw him earlier on, Mr Campbell, who's leading our work there on Project Neptune. Now Project Neptune published at the start of September and really gives us an opportunity to look again at the tripartite arrangements in relation to the role of Transport Scotland, the role of CalMac and the role of CMAL as well on behalf of Scottish ministers, so I think a real opportunity to shake things up and do things differently. Mr Campbell has been leading on some of the really important community consultation work that sits alongside Neptune, so I'm looking forward to receiving his report in the not-too-distant future. I'm going to pause there and pass over to Ranald and Roddy to talk to paper 5.

Roddy MacDonald:

Okay. Thank you, Minister. I would just really mention, in the paper, the Islands Connectivity Plan. That replaces the Ferry Plan published in 2012, but it will be wider, looking at aspects such as aviation and [fixed links] as well as ferries in terms of total transport solutions. A lot of work will be done over the course of the next year. On that, we're really keen to involve the organisations in this room in the discussions on that. We're also really keen to involve communities and the big community needs assessment done as part of that.

As the Minister said, the long-term plan for vessels and ports is a really key part of that in terms of the vessels that are coming forward. As part of that, there's a carbon reduction plan. As we get into our small vessel replacement programme, electrification of those smaller 40-metre type vessels is a real possibility and opportunity there. Part of it will be a fares policy review, linking in to the wider fare review that Transport Scotland is doing, also looking at onward and connecting travel as well. All of that will set the strategic direction, working with organisations like yourself and communities for ferries and other aspects of rural transport going forward. It will also feed into the retendering of the Clyde and Hebrides ferries contract which comes up in 2024 and also inform how we take that forward as well. Yeah, just really keen to hear views of members in the room. I'll pass over to Ranald just to say a couple of words as well. Thank you.

Ranald Robertson:

Thank you, Roddy. I was just going to touch on the reference in the paper to HITRANS, COHI Mobility as a Service platform just to underline that that tool has now arrived for ferry, the first such arrival in the UK as well when NorthLink became one of the modes of travel available through that app. I would really commend people to maybe look at the app, use the app, use it for your travel. I'll take my cue from Councillor Stockan. I learned to do that a number of years ago. But he has made the point that the part of the ferry that often fills up fastest is the vehicle deck. Mobility as a Service is a tool that is designed to bring convenience to the customer so that they can plan without the car. It allows you to take a bus, a train, a plane, a bike and a ferry in the case of NorthLink.

John Swinney:

Some things are bleeding obvious. Ministers are wrestling with that.

Mary MacInnes:

Yeah, [Speech Inaudible].

John Swinney:

If it's too difficult to administer, Mary, then heaven help us. Right, so there's policy on the hoof. Other contributions? Sorry, Raymond.

Raymond Bremner:

Yeah. I'll make my contribution now, because I know that everybody's waiting on James.

[Laughter]

Raymond Bremner:

I see you nodding at him there just now to see if he'd raise his hand before me. There's no getting away from this. The representation around the table here, these are the key communities that we're talking about that are representatives of the communities. We're referring to these roadways by sea, but it's also similar for mainland communities who are challenged in peninsulas. Those peninsulas, to many of those communities, are peninsulas just as fragile as islands. We have many of them in the Highlands. For me it's not so much about the various different challenges that we have with different ferry services on different routes, which are very current and are very challenging for many of our island communities and for ourselves in Highland. But it's what Roddy said and his colleague there. It's not just about what's in the paper, that we are here to talk about the bigger vision.

You said about the strategy, the ferry strategy going forward, because that's key. If we have representation coming to us from Andrew in terms of what does the future look like in terms of finance and investment and understanding not just now about the challenges that we're having to deal with in the here and now which can cause us some real frustrations - it's understanding how that's going to look in the future. Is there hope? Is there some sort of ability to be able to understand that there's going to be a future for these islands and for these fragile communities on peninsulas, even on the mainland? The mainland connects the island communities to the bigger picture and the bigger economy, so that to me is essential.

I'll give you our own challenge in Highland. Many folks know about it. By the way, it's not just the ones that are supported by government but the private ones as well, the small ones right across the whole country that are keeping the small communities going. But in terms of the busiest ferry in Europe, which we have crossing the narrows at Corran and - in these challenging times. Just exactly where do we see that going? How are we going to be able to service the Knoydart and the Knoydart peninsulas and all the peninsulas on the west there? Kilchoan and Mull and Mallaig and the Small Isles and all the challenges that bring - they are as important to the whole ferry strategy and the whole picture as the island communities are. There's no doubt about it. The bigger picture is still to be seen here. Sometimes when we look at the paper - and it's about what we're doing in the here and now. The ferry strategy going forward is most definitely key to maintaining and growing the populations and the economies of the Highlands and Islands. Thanks.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Raymond. I'll take Emma and then Paul.

Emma Macdonald:

Thanks very much, Deputy First Minister. I think from Shetland's perspective, we're really glad to feel that we are now part of this process. It's felt like a long time the ferries were our responsibility. It's a big responsibility to hold on your own as a small local authority, so we are very glad that we've got to a place where we feel like we are part of that collaborative working where we do work together to find solutions. I know that there's a long way to go. But I think, while we do that, working together for the best of our community will give us the best chance to find solutions. We recognise it isn't easy, but we're very glad to have that seat at the table. We're glad to see that, so thank you.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Emma. Paul?

Paul Steele:

Thank you. I suppose it will be remiss of me not to mention the issues we've been having over the last wee while. I thank our colleagues who managed to make it here, including some who went - they thought they were going via Uig, Oban, Ullapool, Oban, Ullapool.

Jenny Gilruth:

So did we.

Paul Steele:

Yes, so it highlighted the issues that we're dealing with on a weekly basis really. We're [looking about] confidence in the economy and the tourism and taking visitors here and also businesses being able to operate throughout the islands. The likes of Gail, the juggling act that she does and [Ushdan], the Robertsons. Ushdan's phone must be absolutely red hot, and has been for the last few weeks. He's dealing with so many different issues across the ferry network just in the Western Isles. Minister, just thank you for your involvement and your approach over the last wee while. It's been very much appreciated, the fact that you've been coming and listening to us and talking to us.

I suppose the one point I really want to make is that in terms of long-term vessel deployment, plans, ports, et cetera, it's listening to the communities. The work that Angus is doing - Angus is really vitally important to that. There are solutions in some ways. I don't want to go over old ground, but at the last COHI, I raised the issue with the Sound of Barra. Extra sailings adds resilience. Actually we've done the socioeconomic case. It makes sense to do it, but we've not taken it forward. The communities are saying this is something that will actually help out the ferry operator. It will help out our community. But we're just not quite getting there. I think going forward it's that recognition and then actually acting on what's being said. But again I thank you for your input so far, so I'll leave it at that.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Paul. Any comments? James.

James Stockan:

Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for the things that were said at the beginning of the meeting from yourself Minister about candour and being able to speak quite freely and frankly at this point. I didn't want to leave the ferries on a sour note, but I must say I'm delighted for many of the communities that are getting a bit of progress. But I have to say - I brought this up at the last COHI meeting at the end of the meeting to say that in 2017 we agreed a principle, is people shouldn't move ahead until others reach the same bar. I think that's really important that we have a level playing field across the country.

I've got a number of things that I'm going to try and weave together here, which takes into place rather than whole area and things like that into what we've said. I was absolutely gobsmacked in the last two weeks when the ferry, the Alfred, was going to be removed from our service when we don't have any confidence that the Pentalina will be certified to come back on that route, which means we could for the summer miss 50 per cent or 45 per cent of the carrying capacity on that route. But it's possible we could have times when we lose 60 per cent of the sailings across the Pentland Firth. For us not to have been even engaged with to be told of that announcement was quite a challenge to our community.

But that's not where it ends, because the real challenge is the Pentland Firth, because it's the only service that we run, the Scrabster and Stromness service, that has been reduced since the ferries were put in place. It's a diminished service from what it was before. There was a freight review led by the government more than 10 years ago. There was one standout anomaly which was the Stromness to Scrabster route. The freight there is twice the price that it costs on the hour-and-a-half journey than what it takes from Uig to Lochmaddy, so it costs twice as much to take freight on the Pentland Firth route than it takes to get to the Western Isles. That does seem rather strange. But we're the only route that doesn't get RET. After all these years, it costs people twice as much. If it wasn't affecting an economy, that might be acceptable. But in the little town of Stromness now, all the hotels are for sale. The shops are closing. You can't get an evening meal all winter. If tumbleweed could grow, it would be going through the street, but it doesn't grow in our area.

I have a real concern. This is why I value these meetings so much when I can take this concern before you and say, why don't we get the national policy on RET? Why was that freight review never looked at when there's one [serious] on every metric. That one route was a standout outside the framework of everywhere else. When we have a town that the council and the Highlands and Islands and everybody are investing in to build a campus and things, the old traditional industry is absolutely crumbling before our eyes. I'm delighted at the words you said about creating economic impact and making sure that place is done something with. I'm appealing on the generosity of your last day, policy on the hoof and all the things that have been said in this meeting that some of these things have to be rectified or else we will end up with a catastrophe. Thank you very much for listening.

John Swinney:

Thanks, James. Alistair?

Alistair Dodds:

Yeah, just pick up a couple of things. One of the issues we've been trying to develop with HIE is speaking to businesses and communities across the Highlands and Islands. Ferries, air transport come up as significant issues for businesses and communities. Stuart and I were lucky enough to have dinner with a local family last night. They were talking about tourism, the fact that a bus can't get on a ferry, big bus operator, probably means that they don't come again in the future. We're working away on these things. It's quite interesting, because the Minister told me that as a Scottish Government agency I probably shouldn't be making too many comments about these things. But I actually want to work with the Minister and I think she knows that. It's absolutely essential. What I like about the approach that we're taking - and I would hate if Jenny Gilruth actually was promoted this afternoon or tomorrow.

Jenny Gilruth:

I might be demoted.

[Laughter]

Alistair Dodds:

Well, I would hate that, I can tell you, because I think you've made a real effort to do things, both short term which is really important - and you have reacted, probably more than any other Transport Minister I've seen. I think you've also then looked at the medium and longer term or looking at that just now. But I see big efforts being made, but they are important. I know you realise that. Everywhere you go, these are the conversations we have. Housing, transport are huge issues for us. But what I do like as well is the fact that, looking for Project Neptune, that you're actually looking to challenge the agencies that are there. I think that must be a nightmare, whether it's Transport Scotland - apologies to my colleague up here - or CMAL or CalMac. You can probably throw another party into the room, which makes things difficult. But I know that we're trying to do these things.

Jenny Gilruth:

Yeah.

John Swinney:

The last point, I think, was Alistair's point about working together to get solutions. That's very much been my approach throughout this. I think we need to do more of that. Communications need to improve, yes, from CalMac but also from Transport Scotland, also from government. Part of that work, I think, is ultimately going to [be informed] by Mr Campbell's work, because I think Angus Campbell's work is really fundamental to where we get to in terms of the improvements we need to see in relation to the delivery of services, yes, but actually how passengers, folk who live in our island communities actually experience the network. Thank you. I think that's probably a neat summary and a nice place to end.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Jenny. There's very important issues here. The government takes them seriously. We're trying to focus on finding solutions. The Minister is, as I say, deeply engaged in that dialogue to bring people together to make sure they can be resolved. I give you that assurance that in all communities, whether it's in Arran or Argyll or Highland or Orkney, Shetland, Western Isles - all those different geographies will be - Moray doesn't have a stake in this venture.

Male:

Just come back.

Male:

Come back.

John Swinney:

a Sheonag, agus tapadh leibhse airson a’ phàipeir a th’ againne an-diugh agus ’s math a bhith air an eilean seo airson a’ chiad uair a-riamh dhomhsa. Bidh mi tric ann an Leòdhas ach seo a’ chiad uair a bha mi... (You said about using the language, there, Shona and thank you for the paper we’ve got today and it’s good to be on this island, for me, for the first time ever. I’m often in Lewis but this is the first time I’ve been...)

Shona MacLennan:

Fàilte air an dùthaich. (Welcome to the country)

Raymond Bremner:

Agus cuideachd tha na naidheachd anns a’ phàipear a tha seo uabhasach math dhan a Ghàidhlig agus cuideachd na cothroman a bhios againne a-nis agus sìos an rathad. (And also the news in this paper is very good for Gaelic and also the opportunities we have now and further along.)

Thanks very much for the paper, Shona. Get out of the Gaelic mode now and go back into English. The paper gives us lots of that word I used earlier on, Jenny, hope in terms of where we're going with the language, where the Scottish Government's investment is coming round very much so in terms of the pathways and the opportunities for Gaelic to be used and to be spoken and to be seen to be used and spoken and to be visual. I absolutely believe that that's going to carry on down the road.

You're saying there just now that these opportunities are manifest and they are being picked up on. In some of our authorities, certainly in Highland, we are still number 1 [pro capita]. Glasgow's hot on our heels, but we are still holding on to that position in terms of GME going forward. But you, amongst many others, recognise the challenges that face local authorities like ourselves in terms of going forward with the GLP4 and how we are going to be able to deliver on our aspirations.

For me it stems at Gaelic-medium education in infancy, because whilst we're producing fluent native new Gaelic speakers - that's a really key word - new Gaelic speakers, here on this island and these islands, the position is that young children can be born into the language. Whereas in areas in the Highlands, they are not born into the language. We are cultivating that community, which I think is really good for the Highlands.

That's exactly what the Scottish Government are looking for, new Gaelic speakers, but with that comes the challenge of being able to provide for that. You've touched on it lightly in the paper, but it's well known to the Scottish Government the challenges that exist there. In the Central Belt of Scotland, it's easy or easier and certainly in the Western Isles where intuitively but also naturally there are Gaelic speakers who are able to fulfil the roles that are essential in providing that resource. Whereas in Highland we find it really difficult. That's not just in Highland. We know it's in other local authority areas where it's not indoctrinated in the culture of that local authority area. But we are moving forward with it but particularly so up in the rural areas of Highland. We have now got born-and-bred fluent Gaelic children who've been born and bred in Caithness. If that's not an achievement I've ever heard, then...

[Laughter]

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. I would just like to highlight - so I've been on that Short Life Working Group that Shona referenced in her update there. Without wishing to pre-empt the content of that report which has been submitted to government and is shortly due to be published, I think one of the things that we've touched upon in other topics this morning has been the linkages between different issues. We found as part of the work through that group that actually whilst huge strides have been made in language acquisition, in policies such as the Ceòlas Gaelic first policy, in the work of Bòrd na Gàidhlig, [MG ALBA and co], there's also a huge linkage with things like housing, transport, broadband, because if the language is to survive and thrive in Gaelic communities, then there needs to be the opportunity for people to live, work and thrive in these places. Very much I think you'll find that the outcome of that report will be focusing on the holistic place-based approach.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Jo. Paul.

Paul Steele:

Again I'm going to echo what's been said already. I agree with all the points that have been made. Economic growth and housing investment across the islands is essential really, because if we don't have the jobs and the homes for the Gaelic speakers who are here and also to attract new people, they're going to continue to disperse to the mainland and further afield. We're at risk of losing these people. I'm not going to go back to the HPMAs, but fishing is absolutely huge in our communities. It's probably one of the strongest Gaelic cultures on the go. Most of our fishermen are - it's Gaelic they speak on a daily basis. It's ensuring that we allow these natural cultures to be not just maintained but developed further.

Good report, so thank you very much for that. There's a lot of next steps in it that are structural and organisational. Here there's a bit of a breakdown in intergenerational language transfer, so it's about what we can do in the community as well as what we're doing at a national policy level. I think there needs to be a lot of community-based development approach such as buildings like Cnoc Soilleir and the activities that'll take place here. That probably goes back to the first point about the economy and growth in housing investments. I think I need to give a mention to Keith at the back and the work he's doing with Peat and Diesel.

[Laughter]

Female:

Yeah.

Paul Steele:

There's a lot more people around the United Kingdom using Gaelic phrases. They might not know what they mean.

Keith:

Aye, if they've been listening.

Paul Steele:

It brings back this creativity and opportunities, so we take advantage of these things when we can. Thank you.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Paul. Rob and then I'll come to Frank.

Frank Mitchell:

It's just to add a couple of things that didn't come up. I think through the partnership work we're doing on the working group, looking to work with Gaelic employers to help them get accreditation for the training they're doing and work-based learning in Gaelic, formalise that a bit more so that it can be understood by the apprenticeship programme that that Gaelic language is part of that as well. Also working with the Highland Council on a careers event for Gaelic speakers for school pupils this year as well, so just a couple of other things that are trying to help and promote the speaking of Gaelic.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Frank. Rob?

Rob Dickson:

Thank you. Just to pick up on that linkage with tourism, so the tourism Gaelic plan is due for refreshment, will be refreshed this year. But in discussion really with Shona and her colleagues and with government colleagues, it's going to be a tourism, culture and heritage strategy. That'll bring together not just VisitScotland's thinking but also Historic Environment Scotland, National Museums Galleries and others as well. I think that demonstrates the breadth of what is now possible, which wouldn't have been really recognised, I don't think, when we first put in place the tourism strategy.

The second thing that's made such a huge difference is the availability of tools and input from online. The combination of those two things is really giving us a much greater opportunity to extend how we link Gaelic into all of the points around tourism and culture and heritage, not just looking at it through that single lens of tourism.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Rob. James?

James Stockan:

Yeah, I'm just delighted to hear how - I don't often contribute in a Gaelic conversation because of my culture.

Male:

You need to start, James, [I think].

[Laughter]

James Stockan:

The second project that the task force is developing is an addressing depopulation action plan. Whilst we're not yet at the stage where the drafting of the plan is beginning in full, Mr Robertson who chairs the task force and Ms Gougeon have helped to shape a development phase which is really solutions focused around these population attraction, retention issues, recognising the uniqueness of different places across Scotland but again focusing on gaps.

There's three kinds of activity that we're taking forward as part of this. The first is practical policy tests, so the investment that was planned for the previously proposed Islands Bond is now supporting a range of different tests. These are taking a cross-sectoral approach across localised interventions for skills, migration, childcare, enabling infrastructure and community empowerment, all with the aim of delivering benefits in communities in the short to medium term. Our intention is to publish and announce the full range of these PPTs in May of this year.

But just a couple of examples, one project already underway is the Islands Skills and Repopulation Pilot which is delivered in partnership with the COHI Population Working Group with HIE, SDS and North Ayrshire, Argyll and Bute and the Western Isles. Another example of a PPT that we're likely to develop is building on the Rural Visa Pilot proposal that was published last year, which set out a methodology for facilitating place-based migration to rural and island areas. We're hoping to run a PPT focusing on supporting rural talent attraction later this year.

There's a few other things that are developing in the action plan. Evidence building is one of those. I'm pleased to say that, as a direct action of a previous COHI, the independent Expert Advisory Group on Migration and Population has now published its latest report on place-based policy approaches to population challenges. I think there's potentially quite a lot of learning not just for Scottish Government but also at a local and regional level for what this work shows and how it can potentially feed into some of the collegiate delivery that we're all trying to work towards.

Then finally, just on that partnerships point, Mr Robertson who chairs the task force is really clear about not just meaningful partnerships across Scottish Government but also that point around getting the right interfaces with local and regional partners as well. As we continue to build the action plan, it's going to be really important that we continue to interface in the right ways with the local initiatives here, like the Repopulation Zones in Uist, the work of the Resettlement Officers, the Regional Economic Partnerships as well. I'll leave it there and I'll pass over to Calum Iain. Thanks.

John Swinney:

Calum Iain.

Calum Iain MacIver:

Thanks. Thanks, DFM. I'm going to be very brief in the interest of time.

As members of COHI will be aware, the Repopulation Zones was one of the ideas that was generated and built and came out of COHI, so there are four repopulation areas, zones now in operation across the Highlands and Islands. Each of these is very place based. Each of these is bringing forward ideas, initiatives that are very much located in the place where they are working. I think that is right and I think that is proper, so there's a range of really, really interesting things being developed in each of the four areas. I think there are some interesting initiatives. One of the things that we've got to be sure we do is give space and time for these initiatives to be worked up, developed, implemented and brought forward. I think one of the dangers we've got to guard against is thinking of Repopulation Zones and this effort as a two or three-year initiative. I think population loss has been multigenerational and the solutions have to be multigenerational. We've got to think over a long time window to develop all the solutions.

Each of the areas has got a good partnership working in each of these areas. I'd like to commend all our partner agencies, HIE, Skills Development Scotland, Bòrd na Gàidhlig and others. I think they've really come together and gelled together in joined purpose and are really, really pushing forward and seeing some interesting things develop as a result of that partnership.

The Settlement Officers have been critical to all this work. Getting Settlement Officers on the ground, engaging with communities and engaging with potentially incoming population has been really, really good. I think Settlement Officers are proving to be critical to the work that is being done. We'll hear from Kareen shortly who will go through some of the work that she's been doing on the ground.

I think there has been excellent development, place based, within the communities. The areas we're not getting as much traction on, if you like, is the higher-level issues, housing, digital. Some of these issues, the big-ticket issues, have been very difficult to see movement on. We'll be discussing housing in a bit of detail later this afternoon, so I don't propose to [go in] there. But there is a desire in all of these communities to see broadband, to see digital coming to their communities. Because of the nature of some of these communities, they are the most peripheral communities. They are the communities sometimes that getting that digital infrastructure out to is more challenging. I think that's accepted. But I think we've got to be bolder, more thoughtful, more innovative in how we engage around some of these bigger-ticket challenges so that we're getting both the local and the more national issues working together.

I think this initiative is very much in its early days. I think there's good initial progress done. I think there is real potential in this type of place-based activity if we think of it over the long term. As I was saying, critical to all this is Settlement Officers. If everyone's happy, I'll hand on to Kareen to give an overview from the Uist Repopulation Zone.

Kareen MacRury:

Thank you, Calum. Yeah.

John Swinney:

Thanks. Kareen.

Kareen MacRury:

Thank you. Yes, taking on the Settlement Officer role just over 10 months ago now has - it's been a privilege, but it's absolutely flown by as well. Having an established repopulation working group ready and consisting of local partners which include the council ourselves, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, Skills Development Scotland, Bòrd na Gàidhlig, UHI and Uist third sector. This was really to enable effective partnership working and to collaboratively deliver and develop the Uist Repopulation Zone Action Plan. This action plan consists both of long and short-term measures but all with the aim to reverse the population decline within Uist. Five main areas that the plan covers is housing, jobs, infrastructure, Gaelic and skills.

It was really important to us, as well as the working group, to have the community's views on the action plan. We had consultations take place in Uist just last month. We had them throughout about five village halls in Uist last month. I'll give you a very brief overview of the consultations that we had last month. The critical area that community believe that needs to be addressed first is housing. We need more housing, more varied housing, housing in more areas that people want to live, more support with housing costs and all of this more quickly. It was really stressed by everyone that housing followed by infrastructure should be the top priorities. Once they're in place, then the job vacancies issue can then be targeted after that.

Other issues that were touched upon as well at the consultations included obviously our transport service needed improving, people talking about the appalling ferry service. We also spoke about the broadband. There was a few people at the consultations who still have - they're in the black spots that don't have adequate broadband, which obviously limits their opportunities to applying for remote-working jobs, working from home and so on. There was a lot of discussions around holiday homes and abandoned second homes as well and our empty homes as well in Uist and dedicating Empty Homes Officer to Uist. Access and childcare as well was another one. That was more so around afterschool care, wraparound care and holiday childcare.

But in conclusion really, the housing, transport and travel all obviously impact the recruitment, so with moving forward, myself and the working group will continue to collaborate with the stakeholders, with the community and partners on various different projects that we have going just to strengthen Uist Repopulation Zone initially and the action plan as a whole.

But moving on, since I started my post to date, I've had 196 or so queries, 44 [Speech Inaudible] people in touch with me. Sixty-eight per cent of these queries are people that are getting in touch looking for relocation advice, just for on-the-ground support, advice, asking about what opportunities are there available in Uist? Where can I find housing? Where can I find jobs? They're always so interested in our Gaelic culture, finding out about the catchment area for the schools. All those sort of questions come into there. Fifteen per cent or so is [Speech Inaudible] the housing people and getting in touch with housing. Then the smaller percentages come in through the financial assistance, wondering if there's relocation support, financial support. Childcare as well issues come into there.

But between the 82 per cent of my queries that come under the housing and relocation advice, 34 per cent are waiting on suitable housing to come available before they can make the move, coming to Uist. I had created a questionnaire last summer or so as well. It was aimed at people that had relocated up to Uist within the last few years and just gathering data about where they'd come from, what brought them here, things that made their relocation a smooth one but also the barriers that they came across when they moved up. Forty-nine per cent of relocators did state that finding suitable and affordable housing was the biggest barrier that they had coming to Uist. But to date, I have supported 11 families coming in to Uist. We've got a further nine pending families that are relocating within - well, hopefully before the end of summertime, so it's been really encouraging to be of assistance with them as well.

I'll give you an insight to a couple of projects I've been working on. Childcare is one of them, so childcare's a significant barrier to employment and retention in Uist. Just the absence of childcare during the main holidays has been noted by families and organisations. We don't have any holiday childcare clubs or the afterschool clubs.

We have one registered childminder from [Edeskay] to Berneray, so working with the SCMA, the Scottish childminding recruitment drive for registered childminders within rural locations. Just going into mother-and-toddler groups or parent-and-toddler groups and talking about the opportunity that I have with registered childminders and trying to encourage it. I think maybe last month we had one person that signed up, but even just having that one more person will make a huge difference. With the one registered childminder that we do have, I am currently assisting her with establishing a holiday club within Uist in the summer holidays, so just having a holiday childcare option obviously in Uist would benefit the local employers, the local economy and really the wellbeing of parents and children as a whole.

Another really interesting project that I've been working on is we've developed a digital web portal. It's called Uist [Piuaw], so this is a website where there - we've got all the information really in one place. We've been busy working, developing content and gathering material and what not. It supports relocation. It's promoting jobs. It's promoting all the opportunities, our Gaelic language and culture. We've got a section on what's happening in Uist, events and so on. A lot of the queries I even have - people are getting in touch. They're like, what's it like to live in Uist or what do I have to expect? We've got a collection of stories as well from people that live in Uist and just really evidencing the island life and how brilliant it all is really. Uist Piuaw it's called. Go check it out.

But also it's been of great benefit as well liaising with the other Settlement Officers, Scott [Milly] in Argyll and Bute and Boyd up in the Highland area. Just discussing, sharing ideas and knowledge on key issues that have the impact on population and just being there to offer each other support has been really valuable as well.

But going forward, just looking to continue to gather as much evidence as possible of people's needs and aspirations that are living in Uist currently and just to identify what's going to keep [Speech Inaudible] here but also encouraging people to return back home and others to relocate as well. Thank you.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Kareen. That's a really helpful, practical distillation of steps to try to - often conversations of this type are often at let me call it a strategic level, but it's nice to hear good, solid, practical actions on the ground to try to put some of these aspirations into practical effect. Thank you very much for that and to our other contributors. Thoughts? Bill first of all.

Bill Lobban:

Amanda Bryan:

John Swinney:

I think that's a very helpful intervention on that topic. Okay. Kathleen and then I'll come to Paul.

Kathleen Robertson:

Yeah, just the childcare issues are big issues in Moray as well. We're all probably experiencing the low-wage economies. It's preventing our women and sometimes men coming back into work. It's also forcing some businesses to make strategic decisions on what hours they offer their staff.

We're really lacking in that zero-to-two and wraparound care as well. The 1,140 hour rollout's been fantastic and it's allowed a lot of people to get childcare, but the wraparound and nought-to-two is really, really creating issues for us. In fact it's preventing relocation, because it's encouraging people to actually remote work to the extent that women and partners won't come up to Moray. They won't come and live with us, coupled with the perception that there's poor health facilities. We've obviously got the Dr Gray's issue and I'm sure there'll be issues up in Caithness with hospitals as well. But I think rurality needs to be considered as the offerings that we have for childcare aren't just around the corner. It involves families sometimes having to travel. With the cost of fuel at the moment, it's an added incentive. I think we're in real danger of creating a new parent isolation issue and the knock-on with mental health that that may ensue, so I think it's something we really need to get a hold of.

Thanks, Paul. Alistair.

Alistair Dodds:

Yeah, just very briefly, just thanks to Kareen and Ben and Calum Iain for the work they've done. Like you, I actually really like seeing practical things...

Female:

Yeah.

Alistair Dodds:

...so not more - with due respect to everyone involved in policies and strategies and plans - and I've done a few myself in the past - I think it's really important that we do practical things. Housing as well is going to, I think, echo that. What I would say to Bill Lobban, I'm sure we can have good discussions about future funding, take some of the pressure off you, DFM.

[Laughter]

Female:

[Speech Inaudible].

John Swinney:

I'm glad you're coming to my rescue at this late hour...

Alistair Dodds:

It feels like [Speech Inaudible].

John Swinney:

Alistair Dodds:

James is making the point about shared knowledge. We've got the three Resettlement Officers. It's taking what they're doing but also then saying that flies in Orkney, that flies in Shetland and so on.

One thing I would say, childcare - I was talking to a big provider in Highland last week. She, because of the size of communities, is finding it really difficult to provide childcare, to get that provision in smaller communities. Part of it is regulation. I know it's really difficult to move away from standard regulation, but we've got to recognise that it's not going to be the same in Achiltibuie or Lochinver as it is in Falkirk. Nothing against Falkirk by the way, but it's really important there's a recognition that the scale is going to be difficult. It's going to be difficult for the Scottish Government to take forward their new policies in childcare. It's worth trying to get a response to these things.

The last point with Andrew, he talked about old people moving in. The communities across the Highlands and Islands, I see old people actually really making communities work. The fact that you're over 65 or whatever I think doesn't stop these people contributing to communities. I could take you to various areas across the piece where they have a huge impact on making successful communities. Yes, it can be a bit of a burden as they get really old like me, but they can also make a real difference. We shouldn't forget that.

John Swinney:

Okay. Thanks, Alistair. Any last remarks before I...

[Over speaking]

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Ben. Well, there's a lot of very good material there. My thanks to Ben, Kareen and Calum Iain for a very helpful update. There's a lot of focus - there has to be - on the practical steps that have to be taken within communities but also in how agencies and organisations working together can enable that to be realised. I think there's a message for us all to take away from all of that. Okay, thank you for that. I think obviously that's an issue that the convention will likely want to come back to to see how progress is developing as part of the suite of issues that we're wrestling with today that are on a similar theme.

We're going to break in a moment for some lunch for about half an hour and then we'll come back and use the available time we have then - what's that? That's 12:35, so we'll come back at five past one. We'll do about 45 minutes on housing and then I think what we'll do is we'll take the formulation of outcomes offline. We'll just do that, so we'll use all the time we can take up to about 1:50. Then we'll close at 1:50. During our break for lunch, we have some students from UHI who are going to be playing some music in this wonderful musical centre.

Male:

There we are. Really good.

John Swinney:

Paul, I think you're going to give us a little bit of background information here.

Female:

Yeah.

Paul Steele:

Thank you very much. The students, a couple of them are my neighbours. Hello, girls.

That's the microphone on. That's great. Okay. Thanks very much. Thank you very much to everyone at Cnoc Soilleir for lovely lunch and Ceòlas for your hospitality today. We're going to go on to the last item which we'll undertake till about just before 1:50. We've got about 40 minutes on housing. I can't imagine that will do it all justice, but we'll do enough of it to get a sense of what needs to be followed up. Then as I said, we'll do the outcomes offline to follow those up and get agreement from partners about further steps.

The paper on housing has been prepared really in response to the significance of the issues around about housing that have been raised by colleagues on a number of occasions in relation to the work of COHI. The paper is going to be presented by Jo from Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Jo.

Joanna Peteranna:

Many thanks, Deputy First Minister.

Feasgar math a chàirdean. (Good afternoon, friends.)

I feel usually the tough slot is the one before lunch when you're keeping people from that, but this is going to be the tough one, standing between here and a major political announcement.

John Swinney:

Yes.

[Laughter]

Joanna Peteranna:

I think I will try to scoot through my presentation quite quickly to leave time for discussion. Next slide, please.

By way of context setting, over the last 50 years, the population of the Highlands and Islands has increased by 23 per cent. This is a really good news story. However, the overall statistic masks variation across the region. Over the last 20 years, Orkney, Highland and Moray have grown by between 11 and 17 per cent. Argyll and Bute has decreased by five per cent. The Outer Hebrides has actually seen 0.7 per cent growth, but South Uist has seen 17 per cent reduction.

The My Life in the Highlands and Islands survey was completed in 2022 with 5,300 adults aged over 16, living in the Highlands and Islands, responding. From that survey, we see more localised priorities broken down by each of HIE's area [of those] geographies there. The points in green reflect statistically significant variation. Broadly speaking, in more populated parts of the region, our towns, there was greater emphasis on opportunities, job opportunities, jobs that pay better and social activities. However, in the rural areas, infrastructure was of greater importance - housing, broadband and transport. The comments highlighted in yellow confirm that housing in these places was deemed the most important issue or barrier to those who completed the survey. Next slide, please.

Having a look at what our employers are telling us, this information has come from HIE board engagements from business panel surveys and through our area teams across the whole Highlands and Islands. From the business panel survey in November '22, around a third of businesses had recruited staff in the last six months. Amongst those that had, 24 per cent had done so by looking further afield within the UK, 11 per cent from international markets. In addition 27 per cent had had to help source or provide accommodation. Nineteen per cent accommodated childcare requirements. Thirteen per cent supported relocation costs and 12 per cent supported employment for partners.

In Shetland the total number of housing completions between 2015 and 2019 was 390. The housing supply target for the last five years was 710, so there's a significant shortfall in private and affordable housing completions against the housing supply targets. Shetland will require additional housing in the region of 929 units over the next 10 years. Almost 43 per cent of this is a requirement for affordable housing. Moving to Argyll and the Isles, Tiree and Mull Community Development Trust are looking at innovative ways to deliver housing for those in employment across the islands. Arran has set up dedicated housing task force. Oban is in a similarly high-pressure area with anchor organisation, [SAMS], continually expressing challenges in recruitment due to lack of appropriate housing availability. The high levels of second home ownership and Airbnb in very popular tourist areas put significant pressure on the system.

Supported by HIE and other funders, survey work was carried out over the last two years in Badenoch and Strathspey, Lochaber and Skye and Lochalsh. Most businesses stated that they're experiencing recruitment issues and expect these issues to worsen in the coming years. Difficulties are particularly acute across larger businesses. A range of sectors is seen to be contributing towards recruitment problems, including a shortage of suitably qualified people, issues relating to Brexit and the general lack of appeal of working in certain sectors. Of more than 400 businesses consulted, almost half said that a lack of accommodation was one of the main causes of recruitment issues. Lack of housing was the most common reason given by applicants who turned down a job offer. The key point here is that many business owners have said that they are less likely to invest in their businesses due to these difficulties.

Finally, a wee bit closer to home - move to the next slide. Yeah. A wee bit closer to home, Harris Development Limited led a community survey of local employers. On this slide, you'll see some of the key responses. The most concerning on that slide for me is the statement that parts of one growing business are to be relocated to the mainland due to the difficulty of recruiting. Next slide.

I'm going to skip over the case studies, because they're well set out in the paper. If we move on to...

Looking ahead, there's arguably never been more opportunity for the Highlands and Islands - offshore wind, space, nature-based jobs, green hydrogen and growth deals. To pick out some examples of things that are coming down the tracks, the recently announced Coire Glas hydro-pumped storage scheme is expected to create 500 jobs. ScotWind is expected to create 3,000 jobs spread across the region. The Highlands and Islands growth deals, five of them across our region, include 50 projects to be delivered between now and 2033 with over 800 million of investment. Next slide.

We have a relatively buoyant current economy despite the challenges post-COVID, post-Brexit, cost of living and energy crisis. We have a significant optimism for major growth in the next 10 years. Housing is a whole-system problem impacting most severely in remote, rural and island communities. It needs to be addressed in many parts, but the parts need to be connected. We have examples of how some employers are addressing their own staff accommodation issues in sectors such as aquaculture, tourism and business partnerships. But how much should we rely on employers to solve the housing problem? We've got expertise. We've got funding. We have the right organisations operating within the system. We have the right motivations. So how do we create the conditions that enable all the organisations to collaborate, flexing their funding and adapting policies and roles to meet the housing challenge at pace?

A few discussion points here. How much should we expect our businesses to invest where it challenges their ability to be productive, growing businesses by locking up capital in building and purchasing staff housing? In terms of short-term support, what tax incentives for those that are driven to build new could be made available? We have a rural burden that can be placed on community-led housing. Should something similar apply where businesses want to protect their investment [be used] for their own staff? Can we provide a tailormade process that enables employers to come together with housing authorities? How do we deal with the problem where employers are able to buy up local housing for their staff, actually adding to the pressure of the existing population being pushed out of the market? I think I'll leave it at that and open for discussion. Thank you.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Joanna. Alastair, are you going to raise issues on student accommodation?

Alastair MacColl:

There's a paper there, which I'm happy we take as read because everybody's had a look at it. Maybe a few remarks [and] context. Our paper on student accommodation, like everything else today, doesn't exist in isolation, because affordable housing for those that graduate [Speech Inaudible] important. The paper really, as much as it's about housing, is about our ability to attract and retain talent and skills that will help drive some of the opportunities that Jo's mentioned. Just one example there, on ScotWind with 3,000 jobs, we're priming that now with a million-pound STEM programme in primary schools and investing in the capacity we need to make sure the skills are there when we define those in a much more forensic way, but we do need to make sure that the accommodation's there to provide for it.

Skipping to the final two key points, we'll look at student accommodation with HIE and that wider programme through the REP to look at accommodation and housing generally. The second issue which we're looking at at the moment - and we'll do so with partners and we need to do so with partners - is how we find patient long-term capital to release private-sector investment, because there are issues with traditional financial instruments in finding patient capital to leverage private-sector investment for some of the newbuilds we need. Most of it will be newbuild.

The rest is in the paper. Happy to take questions. I think it's part of the wider discussion that Joanna's just set up there for us.

John Swinney:

Super. Thanks very much, Alastair. Thanks, Joanna. Okay, can I open this up to contributions?

Malcolm Mathieson:

I think I'll just make one.

John Swinney:

Malcolm.

Malcolm Mathieson:

Yeah, it's the tumbleweed. But they do not move out of their accommodation now, because they don't have to at the end of their term of study. We've got a number of things in there that we need to think about, but we need the solutions in the next couple of years or we'll be lost. [Alistair].

John Swinney:

I'm actually going to go to Alan next.

James Stockan:

Oh, right. Sorry.

[Laughter]

Alan Hill:

Sorry.

James Stockan:

It's all right.

Alan Hill:

John Swinney:

There is a sentiment. We understand the significance of housing to the resolution of interrelated challenges within the Highlands, so let's take that away. Next convention can look at some practical issues coming out of that. Government can give its response as to whether or not those things are doable. We can take it from there. Let's engage in that forum. We'll reflect that in the outcomes that are taken forward.

Okay, right. Well, I'm going to draw things to a close there. I've been asked to encourage you all to sign the visitors' book, which is on the counter there, before you leave. Can I say that there is an event this evening at Am Politician. There's transport leaving the Borrodale Hotel at 6:00. The next convention is due to be on Monday 18 October 2023. We'll agree the outcomes of today's discussion offline. All that remains for me is to thank Comhairle nan Eilean Siar and Cnoc Soilleir for the...

Indeed, yeah.

Meeting Closed

Papers can be made available on request from the CoHI Secretariat mailbox.

Contact

Convention of the Highlands and Islands

COHImailbox@gov.scot

CoHI Secretariat
Strategic Engagement and Co-Ordination Unit
5 Atlantic Quay
150 Broomielaw
Glasgow
G2 8LU

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Start of Transcript

John Swinney:

Mary MacInnes:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

John Swinney:

Male:

John Swinney:

Male:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Alistair Dodds:

John Swinney:

Alistair Dodds:

John Swinney:

Mike Cantlay:

John Swinney:

Alistair Dodds:

John Swinney:

Rob Dickson:

John Swinney:

Male:

John Swinney:

Raymond Bremner:

John Swinney:

Alastair MacColl:

John Swinney:

Emma Macdonald:

John Swinney:

Mary MacInnes:

Male:

Mary MacInnes:

John Swinney:

Stuart Black:

Stuart Black:

John Swinney:

James Stockan:

Male:

James Stockan:

John Swinney:

Paul Steele:

Male:

Paul Steele:

John Swinney:

Rob Dickson:

John Swinney:

Jenny Gilruth:

Roddy MacDonald:

Ranald Robertson:

Roddy MacDonald:

John Swinney:

Andrew Kain:

John Swinney:

Andrew Kain:

John Swinney:

Mary MacInnes:

Female:

Mary MacInnes:

John Swinney:

John Swinney:

Mary MacInnes: