Convention of the Highlands and Islands minutes: October 2024

Attendees and apologies

• John Swinney, Scottish Government
• Kate Forbes, Scottish Government
• Paul McLennan, Scottish Government
• Anna Densham, Scottish Government
• Judith Young, Scottish Government
• Sean Neill, Scottish Government
• Audrey Forrest, Argyll and Bute Council
• Pippa  Milne, Argyll and Bute Council
• Ealasaid MacDonald, Bòrd na Gàidhlig
• Sandy Bremner, Cairngorms National Park Authority
• Anne Murray, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar
• Duncan Macinnes, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar
• Duncan Gray, Crofting commission
• Gary Campbell, Crofting Commission
• Malcolm Mathieson, Crofting Commission
• Euan McVicar, Crown Estate Scotland
• Ronan O'Hara, Crown Estate Scotland
• Alistair Dodds, Highlands and Islands Enterprise
• Stuart Black, Highlands and Islands Enterprise
• Ranald Robertson, HITRANS
• John Mundell, Moray Council
• Kathleen Robertson, Moray Council
• Sarah Compton-Bishop, NHS Highland
• Fiona Davies, NHS Highland
• Gary Robinson, NHS Shetland
• Alan Hill, North Ayrshire Council
• Craig Hatton, North Ayrshire Council
• Heather Woodbridge, Orkney Islands Council
• Oliver Reid, Orkney Islands Council
• Anita Jamieson, Shetland Islands Council
• Emma Macdonald, Shetland Islands Council
• Neil Grant, Shetland Islands Council
• Frank Mitchell, Skills Development Scotland
• Stephen Sheridan, Skills Development Scotland
• Bill Lobban, The Highland Council
• Derek Brown, The Highland Council
• Raymond Bremner, The Highland Council
• Alastair MacColl, UHI
• Rob Dickson, VisitScotland

Items and actions

Agenda

• 11:00-11:30   Welcome / Review of Outcomes
• 11:30-11:45   Acknowledgement of written papers
• 11:45-12:45   HIREP Economic Strategy Update
• 12:45-13:45   Lunch Break
• 13:45-15:30   Housing Discussion
• 15:30-16:00   Digital Infrastructure Discussion
• 16:00-16:30   Forward Look and Close

Start of Transcript

Emma Macdonald

Good morning, everyone, and it's a real pleasure to open our convention today and to welcome you all here to Shetland

Madainn mhath a h-uile duine agus fàilte gu Sealtainn airson COHI.

(Good morning everyone and welcome to Shetland for COHI.)

I would particularly like to welcome the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic, Kate Forbes, to her first meeting in the role of CoHI Chair. It's also lovely to have the pleasure of the First Minister and the Housing Minister join us here today.

As I'm sure you will discover during your visit, Shetland is a special place, a place you cannot truly understand until you're here. Our culture, our history and our geography and many other special characteristics make us a truly unique part of Scotland and the UK. We are closer to the Faroe Islands than we are to Edinburgh and closer to Oslo than we are to London.

We are blessed with natural resources, with the power of yesterday and today, oil and gas, and the power of today and tomorrow, wind and wave. Here in Shetland we have some of the most windiest weather and that means we make some of the most energy. This advantage has energised Scotland and the UK, but there's a flipside to this because these cold winds also mean we need the most heating and therefore, we have some of the highest bills and highest rates of fuel poverty. The average cost of heating a home in Shetland is about £4,000 and that's almost double the cost of heating the same home on the mainland.

Our place in the world, literally, is allowing us to become the UK's foremost location for satellite launches, with all the associated benefits of entering the global space sector. Our nearly 3,000 kilometres of coastlines create a diverse aquaculture sector, from sea fish to farmed fish and shellfish. Shetland is thriving, but there's a flipside here too. The locations for this nationally significant activity are hard to get to and dependent on an old and often unreliable ferry network.

Although we have outstanding opportunities here for young people and young families, it's undeniable that our remoteness has an impact on our ability to retain and attract the younger people we need to make the most of these many opportunities. We have lived experience of all of the geographical attributes which present us with our unique opportunities, also presenting us with unique risks. Our remoteness makes it difficult to keep our young talent here and to attract new people to us.

Our higher cost of living means that people living here are between 20 and 60 per cent worse off than those living on the mainland. Our climate makes it difficult to keep our elderly people warm without plunging them into fuel poverty and our geography makes it difficult to keep ourselves physically connected without constant investment in transport links.

Our physical remoteness has also meant we lag significantly behind other parts of Scotland in bringing superfast broadband to Shetland's homes and businesses, which can make life unnecessarily difficult for these increasingly tech-dependent industries, as well as placing another barrier for young workers to live and work here.

We know that from Shetland's opportunities in space, in oil, in renewables, in fish and mussels, the whole country benefits. We want to work in partnership with the Scottish Government to make it more affordable to live here, easier to travel here and more connected to work here. We want to reverse our demographic trends and make the most of the economic opportunities that Shetland has in abundance.

I was recently in Edinburgh at the end of August and I met with a large number of Scottish Government ministers. I'm really pleased to say that I don't remember any other occasion where they as a group were so switched on to the wants and needs of people in remote and rural areas.

But now, for the sake of Shetland, the Highlands and Islands more generally and Scotland, we need to turn that goodwill and good words into action. Today we'll be discussing housing as our main theme and clearly, this is one of the critical policy areas supporting our ambition to address our demographic challenges and to support more working age people to stay here or move here.

I look forward to the opportunity to explore our shared Highlands and Islands challenges, find common solutions by sharing expertise and experience of what works within a place-based and locally driven approach, as we develop some meaningful actions and interventions from our discussions today. I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to visit Shetland and for the thoughtful contributions I know you'll be making in our discussions today. I will now pass you on to our Chair, Deputy First Minister, Kate Forbes.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you very much and thank you, Councillor Macdonald, for the warm welcome and for the hospitality that I'm sure that we will enjoy today. Thank you also for the team at Shetland Isles Council for helping to pull this all together. A very warm welcome to all of you as attendees to the autumn 2024 meeting of the Convention of the Highlands and Islands.

Last time I was in Shetland it was also to attend the Convention of the Highlands and Islands and it probably feels a little bit like déjà vu, because the man to my right was chairing on that occasion and here we are at the first Convention of the Highlands and Islands and he couldn't resist coming back, such is his affection for, but more than that I think, respect for the importance of the discussions that we have here at the Convention of the Highlands and Islands. I will hand over very shortly to the First Minister, who I am absolutely delighted to see here this morning.

In terms of my chairmanship, I'm very keen to ensure that the time you spend here is useful and that it's focused. I'm conscious that a number of the issues that we discuss today and other meetings of the Convention of the Highlands and Islands are some of the most important to the people that we represent and all of us want to see tangible progress. I'm very open to having conversations with each and every one of you, both in a formal context like this, but also in the fringes of the Convention of the Highlands and Islands.

I suppose there are three things that I'm keen to see. The first is that we're as focused on action as possible, because time is of the essence. The second is that we're able to speak with one voice on behalf of the communities of the Highlands and Islands on specific changes that we need to see to unlock the huge potential. The third is to be ever conscious of the interaction between policy and implementation and that policy is only ever as good as its implementation. I think those three things should hopefully be a good focus for the policy issues that we'll come on to discuss.

We do have a packed agenda today. Pleased to see housing featuring so prominently and also looking forward to seeing the progress that's been made on the Highlands and Islands Regional Economic Partnership. Some of us the pleasure, hosted by Shetland Islands Council today, to see two housing sites, including one of the biggest housing sites in Shetland.

It's stark to hear that actually in terms of the huge potential that we've heard Emma outline around energy, natural resources, that can only be unlocked if we have people and we can only have people with housing. But we can only have the housing if we have the workforce and therein lies the challenge that we're all grappling with and why we do need to lend to one another our best ideas and most creative solutions to that. So big opportunity today and I will try and keep us as focused as possible.

I do have a few housekeeping issues to pass on. There's no fire alarm planned for today, so if it does go off I recommend you get out. There is a fire assembly point in the vicinity. Catering for lunch will be provided in the café area where tea and coffee was provided this morning. The convention is being livestreamed to be then transcribed and my favourite one, please note that the microphones are live at all times. So if you do want to say anything under your breath, perhaps wait until the thing is over. If you are on Twitter or X, as some people infrequently call it, you can post from the convention hashtag, which is #autumncohi2024. On that uplifting note, it's my pleasure to hand over to the First Minister, John Swinney.

 

John Swinney

Thank you very much, Kate, and good morning, colleagues. It's a great pleasure to be with you this morning. As many of you will appreciate, I am no stranger to the Convention of the Highlands and Islands, having chaired this body for 16 years uninterrupted in my previous ministerial life. I bet you all thought that you'd seen the back of me, but here I am once again. I did reassure Kate that it is her responsibility to chair the Convention of the Highlands and Islands on an ongoing basis, so I will make the occasional appearance at this event. But I thought it was important for the first meeting of the convention after I became First Minister that I did come along today.

It also allowed me to fulfil my commitment to visit Shetland, which had been planned and was midway to being delivered in May, apart from the fact that I circled round at Sumburgh Airport on many, many occasions and returned to Edinburgh unable to land because of the weather. In perhaps appreciating, Emma, the distances involved, I was told by one of my colleagues who was on the trip with me that we could have flown to Spain for the length of time that we were in the air on that particular occasion. I'm glad that I was able to land yesterday and I've got a full programme of commitments today.

It is a welcome opportunity to be here, because I wanted to have the opportunity to just say a few remarks at the outset of the convention about the priorities of the Government and what I'm expecting of my ministers, as we engage with the convention and also take forward our wider priorities.

Let me begin, first of all, with the heart of the Government's programme. You'll have seen the Programme for Government that was set out in September. It's a very focused Programme for Government, driven by four overriding themes. The eradication of child poverty, the stimulation of economic growth within Scotland, the movement towards net zero and the improvement in our public services.

Those four themes are distilled in the Programme for Government and they are absolutely driving the priorities of the Government, as we move forward they will drive the priorities that are set out in the budget statement that is delivered to parliament in early December.

Now there is of course - one of the themes that I've brought to the Government's programme is a real attack on compartmentalisation, so I don't see these as four distinct themes, they are absolutely interconnected. What we are able to do in stimulating economic growth and economic opportunity in Scotland will have a significant effect on the eradication of child poverty and on creating the tax base to improve our public services and to invest in the transition to net zero.

I don't in any way see these as compartmentalised propositions. I'm trying to ensure the Government focuses on these principle themes of our agenda, but in a very interconnected fashion. As I look at the opportunities and challenges that exist within the Highlands and Islands, much of the challenges that face the Highlands and Islands are connected to these themes, these principle themes that are built into the Government's programme.

There has been, in my engagement over these issues over many years, a very good focus in this body on trying to ensure that we use the collective capacity that's round this table to maximum effect in securing the objectives that we are pursuing. The blend here of the leaders of, for example, health boards within Scotland, along with the leaders of economic development organisations alongside statutory stakeholders, alongside local authorities, is a really powerful combination of interests sitting along the Scottish Government.

What I hope is possible to come out of the discussions that take place in the Convention of the Highlands and Islands is a very focused agenda on how we can collectively make a difference to improve the lives of people in these communities. One of the terms that I've been using in my direction to civil servants is that I want to see us involved in activist government. What I mean by that is I want us to be focused on how we get solutions and how we get outcomes. How we take away obstacles, how we take away barriers and how we maximise the opportunities that we have to make as much progress as we possibly can do.

When it comes to the discussion that you will have later on today on housing, I want the strength of this body to focus on what are the practical and tangible steps we can take collectively to make as much impact on that policy question which causes significant challenges. If you look at the very welcome investments that have been secured in and around about the Moray Firth just now at Ardersier with Haventus, or the Sumitomo investment in Nigg, these are absolutely fantastic strategic investments in the economy.

It's been a result of cumulative engagement by a number of bodies here to make them happen. I think they are complete investment triumphs that we've been able to secure those investments, but they bring with them the requirement to have enough accommodation to house the individuals that will be working on these particular sites and developments. That's a huge challenge to be able to bring all of that about and it requires our focus on ensuring that we have the necessary steps and mechanisms in place to bring that about.

That's an illustration of how an economic development project that will boost our economy, that will help us on our journey to net zero, but it brings with it a major public policy challenge of how do we secure the necessary accommodation to achieve those objectives, is a policy dilemma and challenge that we've got to resolve.

I hope in the course of today we can have some of that thinking, but that's the type of mindset that I think we need to have in relation to the delivery of activist government to secure that progress on behalf of people in these communities. That's the kind of working basis that I hope is able to prevail in the Convention of the Highlands and Islands. I could talk about a whole range of other economic opportunities which I think are really bold which can have similar implications for us.

The other point I wanted to cover is around about public expenditure and the forthcoming budget issues, because obviously I don't need to tell anybody around the table the challenges that exist within our public finances. What I do want to make a plea for is a willingness to consider and assess how we can most effectively utilise the combined resources that we have at our disposal around this table. I'm acutely aware and I don't in any way diminish the scale of the challenge that public sector organisations are facing at the present time.

It's part of what the Government is saying to the United Kingdom Government about the forthcoming budget and what it raises in relation to the outlook and public expenditure. But there is still a lot of public money that is spent around this table through different organisations and I think what some of the projects that we have seen coming forward, I think give us some hope that if we can combine and align public expenditure, we can make very significant impact as a consequence. That's the spirit I would encourage around the table for discussion today.

Then as we look forward to the substantive engagement there will be with all organisations around the table in relation to the preparation of the Government's budget in December, I'm looking to try to find out how we can use public expenditure, how we can perhaps relax reporting requirements, how we can put more flexibility into public expenditure use, to maximise the effectiveness of that public expenditure and there's a willingness within government to have that conversation as we move forward.

I look forward to hearing the discussions I'm able to be here for. I'll be here until lunchtime and I hope to have the opportunity informally to talk to some colleagues as well, to hear of the issues that are on your mind, during the course of the time that I'm here today. I look forward to hearing from the Deputy First Minister of the issues that you conclude on and to how they can affect the Government's priorities as we move forward. Thank you very much, Kate. I look forward to the discussion, thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much, First Minister. Wonderful, we're perfectly on time. We'll move to the first item, which is review of our outcomes from previous conventions. You'll see that in paper 1, can I invite you to note those updates and to ask if anyone has any comments right now? If not, then please if anything springs to mind let the secretariat team know, who are sitting somewhere. Where are the secretariat? Yes, wonderful. But anything particular to note? Yes, sorry, Kathleen.

 

Kathleen Robertson

Thank you, I'm not sure this is picking up but hopefully it is. It's just about an omission which I feel quite strongly about. We discussed it when we were at Western Isles, the convention and I'm sure HIE will back us up that it's a constant subject at Moray, is the lack of childcare. It's the zero to two and it's the wraparound, it's not just the 1,140 hours. It's a huge driver that's holding back our economic development, certainly in Moray. It just seems to be missing from the outcomes which we discussed back in, I think it was, spring 2023, that very last time the First Minister chaired our convention. So I just feel it should be picked up and it's not there.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you very much, great. Well I'm sure that that can be incorporated and we'll look for the best place for it to sit. I'm sorry, Emma.

 

Emma Macdonald

Thank you very much, Deputy First Minister. Specifically it's on outcome 8, but I think it goes back to your opening statement where you spoke about how you saw the future of the convention and how you wanted it to be action focused. I think a lot of the outcomes that we get maybe aren't that action focused, it's not very clear what we're actually trying to do, how we can measure whether it's been delivered. I note on outcome 8 when it looks at there's going to be ways of monitoring and exploring different ways of doing convention and seeing what works, that you're going to be considering a paper on that.

I suppose that's an opportunity there for us to look at how can we make sure that the outcomes are action focused, maybe with timelines so that we can really see that what we're doing here is measurable and it's making a difference. There's lots of people around this table and lots of opportunity to really make a difference, as we've heard, but I think if we had something that really showed us how that was working it would be more meaningful.

 

Kate Forbes

Great, thank you very much. That is an issue close to my heart, where I have a veto on words like review, consider, explore. Instead, if we could get a form of reporting perhaps on outcomes where we find agreement on slightly more action-oriented words, if people are interested and up for that as an action from this meeting, we'll come back to you. There's a groundswell of support there, so we will come back then on that and do something slightly more substantive than just getting a thesaurus out, to look at something more substantive. Thank you for that, Emma. Raymond?

 

Raymond Bremner

Yes, just to endorse that point actually. I think you know that because that was one of the first things I mentioned to you when you came in the door. The point was mentioned at the last CoHI, I mentioned it myself and that is we have a big body of organisations around the table here representing with a specific focus on Highlands and Islands and the challenges but also the opportunities that prevail for us. I think it is a well held view among members at the table here to not just a paper, I think the point that Emma made is absolutely smack bang on.

But there should be what has CoHI actually delivered against the outcomes over a period, we can go back and we can review that and if there's anything that we feel that we have not quite - where because we've closed off an outcome and actually there are other things relative to that that have appeared, then we catch them. But we need to have a look and say well what is it that we're actually delivering in accordance with the outcomes? Not just closing them off but being aware that we review and actually come up with what we've actually delivered against them. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much, Raymond. I suppose that goes to a point that we also quickly touched on, on the way in, which is where things best sit. I see this forum as almost a summit of all the work that goes on in other forums. It's making sure that there is that reporting to CoHI through other forums and there isn't duplication of work. If we bring those points together into an outcome that we will deliver for the next meeting and there'll need to be some work in between just to make sure everybody's happy with what it looks like and take on board the point around childcare as well.

Okay, I'm not seeing any more hands, so we'll move on to the written papers. You'll see that there are three written papers. Now we have our first written paper on the Regional Economic Partnership, but we are going to dedicate more time to that later on in the agenda, so I'll keep my remarks very brief, apart from saying that with the economic responsibilities that I have, I strongly believe that we need the Regional Economic Partnership to be as effective as possible.

We've then got two other written papers, so we have the first on Gaelic, so thanks very much to Ealasaid MacDonald for that paper from Bòrd na Gàidhlig. The main focus of that paper is actually probably larger than Gaelic, which is why it's of significant relevance to everybody around the table, because it's about the Scottish Languages Bill which is currently making its way through parliament.

We've come through stage 1 and one of the items for debate, for example, in the passage of that bill has been how we recognise the dialects and languages of Scotland. For example, what does Scots mean to an Orcadian, what does language mean to somebody from the Shetland Isles and beyond. Very interested in any feedback that anybody has on that. The general principles have been agreed and the aim with the bill is to see significant progress in recognising and strengthening our languages, so it does provide legislative protection for the first time for the Scots language in the round.

But anyone who's been tracking the debate will see that there has been a lot of conversation around defining Scots in particular and it needs to feel like communities across the Highlands and Islands recognise the definitions that are put in the bill. We're moving towards stage 2, which will be before Christmas, so there's an opportunity for amendments to that. It also touches on two other items of progress, which is information on Sabhal Mòr Ostaig and Cnoc Soilleir as well.

Then thanks to Transport Scotland colleagues for the transport update paper. That has high level updates in it on the islands connectivity plan, on aviation, which some of us were able to test this morning, weather resilience and transport health as well. Can I pause there and see if anybody has any comments on any of the three papers, perhaps reserving anything substantive on the REP for later? Raymond?

 

Raymond Bremner

Uill, mas urrainn dhomh facal no dhà a chur ann an Gàidhlig. Tha mi gu bhith a’ bruidhinn ann an Gàidhlig sa chiad àite agus an uair sin beagan ann am Beurla ma tha sin ceart gu leòr.

(Well, if I can say a word or two in Gaelic. I am going to speak in Gaelic at first and then briefly in English, if that is okay.)

Gu h-àraid a thaobh nan tidsearan, tha fhios againn cho doirbh ’s a tha e fhathast tidsearan fhaighinn air feadh na Gàidhealtachd agus anns na h-Eileanan.

(Particularly with regard to teachers, we know how difficult it still is to recruit teachers throughout the Highlands and in the Islands.)

Agus an obair a bhios sinn a’ dèanamh a thaobh sin agus don chùram na cloinne nuair a bhios iad anns na sgoiltean.

(And the work that we are doing with regard to that and for childcare when they are in the schools.)

Particularly in terms of the continued challenges that we find in being able to find teachers to be able to support our Gaelic language plan, we've spoken about this with Bòrd na Gàidhlig. They're very supportive but it's just that whole culture shift that we're needing to see and at pace to be able to support some of our plans and some of the local authorities.

I can't stress enough we know that with the exception of the work that's in Glasgow, I think Highland and some of the island local authorities are leading in this but it really needs some critical support work coming through Bòrd na Gàidhlig. We know that with the good work that we're doing with Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, but certainly to impress on government in terms of what we need to see happening to be able to support our vision with the work that we're doing towards GLP4 in some of our authorities, thanks.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks, I think that's a very important action that we perhaps need to pursue and I don't know if anybody, Ealasaid?, wants to add anything to that.

 

Ealasaid MacDonald

May I just say, Raymond, we know the situation and we have a problem with teacher retention, which is actually turning into a bigger problem of teacher recruitment. It's very exciting and we wish all the young people who went off in the last couple of weeks to go and start training are very excited, but we all hope that they're still in the profession in 10 years' time. That's becoming an increasing problem. The item that we have as a substantive item today on the agenda in terms of housing is one of the issues that we have, is it's evidence of how these areas of policy are crossing over and affecting. So I do think that it needs to be a consideration when we're discussing these topics.

 

Raymond Bremner

Can I also mention [unclear], that is to support where we are delivering childcare and the support mechanisms that need to be put in place there, especially when it's Gaelic speaking children. That's still also a focus that supports, so it's a kind of two-prong focus that we're having to work with in terms of the challenges. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Yes, thanks. Yes, Duncan, is it?

 

Duncan Macinnes

Just following on from what was said, we certainly welcome the funding for Cnoc Soilleir. Looking forward I think we must develop a foundation there and I think the foundation on education and particularly on Gaelic teaching education and providing services for developing teachers, I think there's a lack there with the number. Certainly the Comhairle have a Gaelic-first policy that has been well received within the community.

I think to follow up on that we must have the backup to make sure that the Gaelic teaching, teachers in particular are coming through the system and Cnoc Soilleir as I said, we welcome that. Also looking at extending certain areas that would be calling them the Gàidhealtachd and looking at the benefits that the Gàidhealtachd area has done in Ireland, for example, when we look at Connemara and the way that's developed, the remoter areas. I think Gaelic could offer that opportunity.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you very much. Kathleen?

 

Kathleen Robertson

Thank you, Chair. I'm going to move to transport, if I may. It will come as no surprise under 16 I'm going to raise the resilience of roads and particularly obviously A9, A96 and A82. Obviously deeply concerning with bad weather that that really limits accessibility.

The other bit is transport to health. We're all striving to deliver the sort of 20-minute neighbourhoods, which obviously urban is on foot and more rurally it's by vehicular transport. Obviously access to health in our rural areas is really, really challenging. In Tomintoul, for example, it can take two hours to get to Raigmore, it can take two hours to get to Aberdeen. So it's just to kind of highlight that it's not just the islands, although I obviously understand their situation. Really remote parts of Scotland really struggle with getting people to hospital on time for certain services. I just think we need to be mindful of that as well.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you very much. Yes.

 

Ranald Robertson

Hi, thank you, DFM. Just maybe because Kathleen raised that important point, but just to underline that it's maybe not as clear in the transport update, but there is a reference to HITRANS doing some work that is like a health transport access plan and that covers the whole of the HITRANS area, including the NHS Grampian bit of the area. That is something that we will be looking at. It's just that I think the work is a bit staged, so we've got a meeting tomorrow taking place in Benbecula to follow up the meeting that Cabinet Secretary Mr Gray convened on 21 August. That's with the particular issue of access to the island by aircraft and the travel demand to get people to hospital nan Eilean in Stornoway.

We are looking to work our way through a broader programme of action, but we do have some particular actions taking place early on. But we're very keen to underline the importance that they have for other parts of the area as well, so clearly what we're doing in the Western Isles has relevance to access from the Argyll Islands, Orkney and Shetland as well. It's very much something we're coordinating with partners as well in each of the different council areas too.

 

Kate Forbes

Ranald, do you expect that work to be done within the next six months? So at the next CoHI might there be something of substance for us to consider?

 

Ranald Robertson

Yes, absolutely. I think the expectation is to have the Western Isles programme and some actions that can be taken from that completed by the end of the calendar year, with a substantive report that we can share. We should actually have the bones of a wider health transport action plan by the next CoHI as well.

 

Kate Forbes

Okay, well at the risk of me just filling the agenda entirely within the first hour of this meeting, for the next one that might be something that we might want to come back to. Yes?

 

Alastair MacColl

Thank you, DFM. Just coming back to Gaelic, I just wanted to reaffirm that UHI teacher training in Gaelic medium is an overwhelming priority. Through the Sabhal Mòr, one of our academic partners, but also through the work we're doing at UHI North, West and Hebrides and Cnoc Soilleir as well. We welcome the opportunity to work with all of the local authorities. We're already working with Ealasaid and Bòrd na Gàidhlig on that. We'd like to hear from anybody that would like to contribute to an integrated solution to what is an overwhelming priority I think for all of us.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks. Emma and then Alan.

 

Emma Macdonald

Thank you very much. It'll be no surprise that I'm going to head back to transport and I suppose I just want to really flag the fact that although I appreciate this paper is around the island connectivity plan, I think it's important that we don't lose sight of those islands that have responsibility for their own ferries. Now we really appreciate the work that we've done around that with the Scottish Government, that revenue funding has been transformational for our services.

But I think we have a responsibility to our communities and we are currently not doing a very good job of that, because the infrastructure and the ferry fleet is just so old. I think we really need to find solutions that take that into account, because all our communities, we want them all to thrive, we want people to live well. To do that we need to have good connectivity, I just wanted to flag that, thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks. Alan and then Heather.

 

Alan Hill

Thanks. It would be remiss of us to attend today and not raise the uncertainty around the Ardrossan-Brodick crossing and also the negative impact that's having on the economy and if we can do anything to improve the proposals and timescales round about that.

 

Kate Forbes

Heather.

 

Heather Woodbridge

Thank you. I just wanted to come in and support Councillor Macdonald's point about the island's connectivity plan. I just wanted to raise the challenge around the focus on considered connections by local authorities that are running services. But also that the focus is on ferries and also we have islands connected by flights as well and I just wanted to raise that and a plea for those connections to be considered as well in the islands connectivity plan, thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

I wonder if I could make a proposal then. On the transport, obviously all the issues that have been put on the table just now are all very relevant, they're very live. If this, I suppose, forum is to be a problem solving forum we've got two very challenging mountains to climb. One is that we can't solve them all through capital because the capital is extremely constrained. Secondly, some of them will require novel ways of doing things. I'm particularly struck by Heather and Emma's points around interisland ferries and although I know you're not the only council areas with interisland ferries, perhaps you are the one that carries the biggest burden in terms of the numbers.

In reviewing how we track outcomes, I think we need to think about how we use this forum to put our heads together to find solutions as well, which I appreciate we do to an extent, but on some of those we can come back next time with an update. We'll just keep going meeting to meeting with sort of updates with sheer information about where things are at. Hopefully by the time we meet there will be significantly more progress, for example, on some of the trunk roads that you mentioned, Kathleen, also on the access to health. But if CoHI is up for it, I wonder whether in terms of the tracking of the outcomes we need to also track how we're actually considering solving some of these.

Because there are solutions, but they may require a little bit of creativity. If anybody's got any thoughts on that, let me know. But if we have a paper, for example, on transport access to health and we have the NHS represented here, my hope would be okay, let's pick the top three things that we need to see progress on and just focus on delivering some progress on that. There are obviously very live conversations going on about supporting local authorities with ferries right now, so that will hopefully have made some progress as well, so I'll just put that on the table.

Then on the Gaelic teachers one, very, very fair that Languages Bill obviously gives Gaelic speakers more rights, which means more responsibilities on public bodies. For example, an expansion of access to a Gaelic ELC, so we need to get - so there may be an opportunity outwith CoHI for me to pick that up with each of those local authorities that are most impacted ahead of stage 2. So why don't I offer a separate meeting with those local authorities that will bear the biggest responsibility for implementing that and we take that offline?

That was two actions, I would suggest. If anybody has any more, feel free to throw them into the mix. No? Great, okay. Thank you to everyone who contributed to those papers and focused our minds on them. That brings us to the first substantive item, which is the Regional Economic Partnership strategy and progress on that. It's good to see progress that's been made, it's good to see the number of items that have been under discussion through that forum.

I'm crystal clear about our future prosperity. There's no point in any national strategies that ignore and forget our local and regional approach, so if each of our Highlands and Islands regions are prospering and progressing, then the whole nation will prosper and progress.

I suppose the other part to this is that it feels like we have never been on the cusp of so much potential prosperity. The First Minister talked about two of the most significant investments, but this morning I was also hearing about what Viking has been doing in Shetland and the number of international as well as national companies that are keen to invest in Scotland. If we don't use that as a legacy for our communities, I suppose I feel the burden of having wasted the opportunity. So we really are at a crossroads right now and the issues that may scupper progress on that economically are all within our gift.

So they are the issues around housing, around infrastructure, but more than that they're what the First Minister called joined up thinking and making sure that we are all integrated and working together in - that's why the Regional Economic Partnership is just absolutely required to deliver the big ambitions that we have for our areas. So welcome the vision statement of the strategy, opportunity to see what fulfilling that will look like within the next 10 years. Again with the point in mind that Emma made around being action-oriented rather than just describing the problems, I welcome Councillor Raymond Bremner to speak to this paper. Thanks.

 

Raymond Bremner

Thanks very much, Deputy First Minister. Nice to see everybody here and I'm happy to provide an update on the Highlands and Islands Regional Economic Partnership and its critical role in shaping the future of this fantastic and remarkable region. I'll take you onto the next slide and we'll have a little chat about the formation and the purpose. HIREP was established in 2022 and brings together a wide range of stakeholders, including local authorities and businesses and government agencies.

Our core mission is to ensure that the voices of the Highlands and our Islands are heard at all levels of policymaking and decision-making. While regional collaboration is not new to us, HIREP's strategy focuses on areas where collaboration is key and where joined up plans and alignment of resources will deliver inclusive growth at a local and a regional and a national level.

If we look at our next slide on membership now, you can see there that the strength of HIREP lies in its broad membership. You can see that on the screen in front of you. It incorporates input from the public and the private and the academic and the third sectors. So to tackle specific issues effectively HIREP also has created thematic subgroups with members outside of the core partnership, ensuring that the right mix of expertise and perspectives are brought together to tackle priority issues.

Let's have a look at our work so far. On the board there in front of you, the focus of HIREP has been on areas where regional collaboration can make the most impact and where a unified voice for the Highlands and Islands is crucial. You can see the community benefit from renewable, housing, regional labour market and the challenges and the opportunities. But another of more information in terms of the work strands.

If we take us onto the next slide, we'll have a look at the strategic development in terms of opportunities. We're now at a pivotal moment in the development of HIREP's new strategy. This strategy isn't just a plan, we believe it's a roadmap to unlocking the region's full potential. Our emphasis is on creating opportunities for young people, addressing depopulation, so we have shared visions here with CoHI, and reducing inequality, all while capitalising on our regional strengths, as shown on this slide.

We'll have a look at our enablers and challenges. While we recognise that opportunities are abound, we also recognise that we have to address the challenges and that could limit our progress in achieving the maximum outcome and benefit of those opportunities. Many of these have been discussed within HIREP and within CoHI for a number of years, but we believe that this new strategy will bring sharper focus and clearer actions to overcoming these obstacles.

If we now look at the vision and goals, our vision is to create a Highlands and Islands that by 2035 is prosperous but also innovative and very much inclusive. There are six interrelated goals and they will guide our collaborative work, including housing, connectivity, skills development and entrepreneurship, all tied together by crosscutting themes like community wellbeing and the just transition to net zero.

If we move on to our region and 2035, by 2035 we envision a Highlands and Islands where communities are thriving, where young people want to stay, where innovation is driving economic growth and where the natural environment is preserved for our future generations.

If we move on to our next slide please, one excellent example of regional collaboration is our work on community benefits from significant investments, like offshore wind. The approach developed here is a model that can be replicated for other largescale projects, ensuring that the benefits of economic development flow back into our communities. The Highlands are poised to benefit from unprecedented levels of public and private infrastructure investment, particularly in the renewables sector.

For us at Highland Council, we have created a social value charter for renewables investment which will ensure that that investment into renewable energy directly benefits our Highland communities. This charter aligns economic growth with community wellbeing, unlocking local opportunities while protecting and maximising the value of our natural environment. We believe that by engaging developers and public entities and the community, that the Council will ensure sustained economic prosperity, fostering long-term benefits and addressing local needs.

Let's have a look at the collaborative focus. Housing has been a clear priority for collaborative action within HIREP. Delighted to see the Housing Minister and Sean with us as well. I've already had the chance to be able to nip their ears and I'm sure everybody else will take that opportunity as well. But our particular housing subgroup has already made strides in addressing the diverse and complex needs across the region, ensuring a holistic approach to housing development.

In Highland we're hosting a housing challenge summit very soon, which is really a call to action, bringing together national and local stakeholders as well as the private sector, to tackle the region's housing needs. The initiative, we believe, will promote long-term investment, regeneration and innovative solutions to ensure everyone has access to affordable, high quality housing.

This collaborative approach will not only aim to meet the current housing challenges, it will also secure future development and support both economic growth and community wellbeing. The aim is to meet the current and future housing demand by bringing a new approach to Highland of sustained public and private sector investment, supported by UK and Scottish Governments and bringing renewal and regeneration to help us sustain our communities.

If we have a look at our skills development now, thank you. Understanding our emerging skills needs is critical to realising the opportunities in our region. At HIREP we are committed to ensuring that our educational and training systems are aligned with these needs, preparing people for the jobs of tomorrow.

Economic success depends on a skilled workforce, ready to meet the demands of a rapidly changing job market. in Highland our strategic skills board seeks to provide a clear and informed understanding of current and future job opportunities and skills needed across the Highland Council area, including the identification of skills provision gaps and the improvement and development of career pathways. Initially there will be a focus on seven priority sectors and I'll just list them. They are tourism, public and third sector, construction, energy and green jobs, digital, food and agriculture sectors and also arts and culture.

If we look at the scale of opportunity now, thank you. Preliminary research has already shown that over £110 billion in investment could be made across the region in the next 10 to 15 years. That would create, we believe, over 85,000 job years, which will realise £35 billion to £55 billion gross value added. These figures underscore the scale of the opportunity, but also the necessity of addressing the enabling factors that could hold us back.

If we have a look at our next steps, the draft strategy will soon undergo final approval by HIREP members and a detailed delivery plan is being developed. This plan will guide our actions and ensure progress is measurable and aligned with our goals.

If we have a look at our ask of the Scottish Government, while HIREP operates independently of both CoHI and the Scottish Government, it's really crucial that the Government remains informed and aligned with our priorities. We're asking for specific support in areas like policy, place-based resourcing and the establishment of a regional intelligence hub to strengthen data analysis and decision-making.

Finally, our conclusion. We look to the future, both HIREP and CoHI. They both will remain our central focus and central to our collective efforts to preserve and prosper the Highlands and Islands. Together I think that we can turn challenges into opportunities and build a brighter future for the region.

I think that one of the final points that I would make as well is in what I said earlier on. That is looking back in the future, I would certainly hope to be able to list the tangible benefits that we've achieved from that collaborative working and from the efforts that we're putting into some of the points that I've made there just now. Whilst we would welcome any questions or comments, happy to invite other HIREP members to contribute as well. If you don't mind, Deputy First Minister, I believe that Alistair would like to maybe address the presentation as well, thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much. Alistair?

 

Alistair Dodds

Yes, thanks, Raymond. I think that's a really helpful summary of what's in the strategy and what we're trying to achieve. What I particularly like about it is that it's been a great effort to work together to produce this, right across all the various partners involved in the REP.

I think again what I like is the fact it's focused on regional impact, things that'll affect every single part of the Highlands and Islands. Again for the benefit of the Highlands and Islands and Scotland in fact, there are so many regional transformational opportunities at the moment. Whether that's from Shetland right down to Argyll and Arran, I can see real benefits coming out of this if we take it forward in a positive way.

What I like about the work we're doing is it's solutions focused. I think Kate mentioned before it's not just about mumping about what the issues are, it's actually trying to provide solutions to go forward. I think these have to be place-based, so this is a regional strategy, but it also impacts on every single area, every single local authority area across the Highlands and Islands.

If I've got one thing I'd really ask the Government to do here is to focus on the place solutions. There are national policies which don't always fit what we're doing or what the challenges are across the Highlands and Islands. I could probably give you an example in childcare and childminding which Kathy raised before. There is a subgroup in the REP that's looking at this.

Stuart and I met with Natalie Don-Innes and Maree Todd. We had a really positive meeting where we were suggesting solutions to these issues right across the Highlands and Islands. We wrote to them afterwards, not just saying these are problems, but we want to work with the Government, with officials, to try and get solutions. Now that can at times be quite difficult. If you have a national policy then there's sometimes a reluctance to move away from that.

But if we're looking for solutions across Scotland, then we really do have to understand the regional differences. I know the First Minister loves the Highlands and Islands, has made a huge impact over the years, but that really stems from trying to do things differently. So it's to focus on place and not on precedent. Precedent gets in the way at times and I think we've really got to overcome that if we want to take this forward.

What I like about the strategy, it's focused on real things. It's focused on issues that we can all take forward for the betterment of the Highlands and Islands and indeed Scotland. What I'd like to ask and you've got the asks in the paper, is that the Government gets behind this as well. It's really important that we all work together to get the solutions that you're looking for.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much. We will open up, we've got about 45 minutes, but can I also commend the approach that's been taken in this paper. The most important words I think are being future focused in looking for opportunities where collaborate action can maximise outcomes.

A lot of words, but I cannot see a way through the current challenges or a way through unlocking the biggest opportunities unless we have some of the flexibility that Alistair's just talked about. I suppose that again sits on all of us. If I take something like housing, it can only be delivered with us all working together. I'll go to you rather than listening to me and if anybody wants to contribute please speak now. Yes, down the bottom.

 

Euan McVicar

Hello, Deputy First Minister. Euan McVicar from Crown Estate Scotland here. I very much welcome the goals, the vision and the strategy and the collaborative effort that's gone into the HIREP strategy, so very supportive of all of that. I wanted just to offer a few thoughts on offshore wind and community benefit in particular.

We're obviously very keen to do all that we can to help facilitate discussion with and collaboration with existing offshore wind operators and ScotWind and INTOG optionholders around this subject and we work with others to achieve that. But there are a couple of points that I think are worth reflecting on. The approach that the HIREP strategy has outlined in relation to needing to take a new almost place-based approach to how the community benefit is implemented, I think, is a really important one.

But there's a counter point to that, which is making sure that when we're dealing with international developers looking to deploy capital in Scotland, that there is clarity around what the expectations of Scotland as a whole are in relation to what will be required of them. That we make it clear and don't create any confusion and barriers around that, while still creating flexibility for local solutions to be implemented with the proceeds of community benefits.

I think there's also a really important point that comes out of Emma's comments on fuel poverty. There's an increasing number of models in the private sector but also in community schemes where project developers are able to contribute towards actually reducing electricity bills for local people. I think we can do more as a collective to investigate how we could implement that and how we could work with regulators to make that happen.

On the subject of regulation, it's important here not to lose sight of the impact that an offshore wind-related transmission bill will have on communities and making sure that we get the right levels of support from transmission companies in relation to the communities they're impacting. That might require particular engagement with Ofgem to make sure that the regulated expenditure covers community benefit.

The final point I wanted to make is that as you know, our rents that we collect from tenants at Crown Estate Scotland get paid into the Scottish Consolidated Fund. I'm loathe to use the word explore or investigate and I haven't quite got my Thesaurus to hand here, but it would be good to take forward discussions about a proportion of our revenues that come from rents in particular areas could be reinvested in things that will create future growth and also deliver good outcomes in terms of the economy and the environment in those areas that are being affected by those industries. We're very keen to not explore, but do something positive around that. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much. Yes?

 

Gary Campbell

Thank you. Alistair, I thought, made a great point about place over precedent. Just a practical example in the spirit of removing obstacles, I think the strategy and the plan are absolutely wonderful and point a very positive way forward. But the golden thread that runs through the vast opportunities we face is skills, talent and the ability to provide those and retain them. We currently have in place, understandably, caps on vocational skills.

I think it's really important that we marry up the capacity we need against the opportunities we have. I'd urge us to think very carefully about removing those caps or changing them where we need welders, electricians, programmers, to power the transformation that we're going to see in the Highlands and Islands. I think there we should be making exceptions to make sure that we don't limit the opportunities that we face.

 

Kate Forbes

Who else, other hands? Yes, Frank?

 

Frank Mitchell

Thank you. Frank Mitchell, Chair of Skills Development Scotland. Just to maybe add to that, very clearly what we're doing on the skills work in this partnership, sharing the data with UHI, HIE, the intelligence going on there is really important and indicates solidly the evidence behind what's going on here and what's needed.

I think the opportunity is very clear coming through and the timescales are in front of us. I think the important part I want to bring out today is that companies will be making decisions in the very near future, not in three or four years, about what they're doing and how they're going to go about doing it. One of the opportunities I think that we would like to investigate further is co-investment from private industry with UHI.

Because a number of them are thinking about their own training centres together and rather than doing that and having that for one company, it makes a lot of sense to actually have something collectively there. Then it's a legacy for the Highlands and Islands if we do that. I think we're hearing that noise more and more from industry out there, because they've got that economic imperative that they need to get on with it. There's an opportunity to grasp that in the short term to really build that into the future and have that legacy there for ongoing training purposes, et cetera, particularly in technical training that's really in high demand.

 

Kate Forbes

Emma?

 

Emma Macdonald

Thanks very much. I think it's really important that we find ways of ensuring that we take our communities along with us on journeys like this strategy. I think sometimes we have a lot of strategies across a lot of the meetings that we sit in. I think if you spoke to the average person on the street here in Lerwick and asked them what was the role of HIREP, what does this strategy mean to you, they wouldn't be able to tell you.

But what they could tell you was how they feel about renewable energy, how they feel about the fact they have some of the highest bills in Scotland. I think we need to really be thinking about how do we take people with us when we want to do some of these things. How do we ensure that people are brought into the why and what we're trying to do and have that conversation with the community about the skills, the future jobs and all the good things that that can bring. But recognising that actually for some people they might not see some of these things as their priority. I think that's something we need to consider within it. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks. Ealasaid?

 

Ealasaid MacDonald

Just to add to Emma's really important point there, I think that communities have to be at the heart of all of this. That's certainly been the sense as we've been working, since I've joined the HIREP and working together. I think that looking at the focus from the community perspective is really important here.

One of the things when we talk about community benefit, that we're not talking to communities and telling them that they've benefited. They need to understand and know what the benefit is and sometimes they need to feel it, but other times they need to understand that if they didn't personally feel it but that it's a wider community benefit that has gone on. I think we miss the mark there sometimes.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. Duncan?

 

Duncan Macinnes

Just following on from community benefit and particularly renewable energy. The Comhairle has been for 20 years seen division [unclear] and officers could have said it's going to bypass the islands. But now we're getting the interconnector in 2030 and Northland Power, that are a Canadian company, entered into a memorandum of understanding with community landowners.

A very significant deal with those communities was agreed if the development - the development's about five kilometres offshore, so it's fixed installation because it's shallower than 60 metres, it's not the offshore ones that are being spoken about in Shetland, the floating turbines are kind of different. But when you were looking at £4.5 million for 35 years and it's index linked and that's what we call, as I call it, part 1, we're looking at part 2 also being into the wider community, the whole Western Isles.

I think this is a unique opportunity for areas that are strong in wind, even in tidal power and certainly offshore wind. We see this as similar to the way oil was in Aberdeen way back in the 1970s. The opportunity exists and there must be a legacy left behind. I know the discussion on skills is really enormous and it will allow young people to stay in those communities in well paid jobs. It's just getting all the actions that we need forward and retaining population and particularly retaining the youth within those communities.

 

Kate Forbes

Could I throw out a few questions? One is that we just heard the need for clarity that's across the Highlands and Islands when we have potential investors and I would seek your views as to where you think we could do more on that Highlands and Islands one voice. I'm conscious that when it comes to international investment, for example, they're not deciding between one part of the Highlands and Islands and another; they're deciding between Scotland or often the UK and another neighbouring country. So if we can speak for one voice, how do we improve the clarity of what's on offer?

Secondly, how do we ensure on community benefit that it is going in the right places? We were having a conversation this morning around housing and, for example, some of those energy companies that are responsible for transmission who are investing in housing, how do we ensure that there are houses being built that leave a legacy for our communities? How do you think we do that better and more consistently?

Then on the skills, I am conscious that if a company's having to establish a training academy it's because they can't get the skills through public sector provision. That is quite at times a rebuke to us for maybe not being as nimble as we can be, so I'm really heartened by the idea of partnership. But how do we embed that partnership? There are my three questions and all of this is relevant because we are currently completely manoeuvring government to try and make it better at coming in behind you in seeking that investment.

When it comes to housing, which we'll come onto, if there's private investment to be had in houses I want them being built in the Highlands and Islands. If there is an international or a national company looking at investing anywhere in Scotland, how do we make sure it's in the Highlands and Islands in a way that is attractive to communities as well? I want to come in behind you in pursuing those opportunities. Raymond.

 

Raymond Bremner

Yes, thanks very much. I was actually going to come in on a point, it might cover one or two of the points that you made there just now. But I think that there are key people at this table here, especially when you're talking about Highlands and Islands and the local authorities and the really, really important part that they play when local authorities are coming up with strong initiatives that really do need supporting, because they're looking to strike that balance.

As such in terms of what the communities perceive what they want as to what really would be the best for them and getting the balance with the communities in terms of their understanding.

But also in terms of the legacy, legacies aren't something that I believe that we should just look back at and say well that was a one-off legacy. Legacy is sustained, it needs to be sustainable. It's the point where if we have investment from our partners and from developers and from public entities, that we actually see that they and our communities and our local authorities are buying into a very much sustained, more prosperous future for our communities in terms of housing, in terms of jobs, in terms of skills, in terms of population retention.

Because when you speak to certain parts of our community, they will only see it as what they think is the best for them. Whereas some of us, we are charged with actually getting the best for all of those entities. I think it's key having discussions with government and making sure that we are of a common understanding of what that sustainable benefit looks like and to support local authorities in their discussions with Crown Estate and understanding how that is going to be secured going forward.

I'd like to think that Highland Council, some of the initiatives that we've come up with are very much going to be supported and their importance of sustaining our communities.

If there's anybody - if one of the key partners in all of this knows about our communities, it's our local authorities. That's where these key discussions need to be had and that keen support needs to be made in terms of the initiatives and the clever initiatives that local authorities are prepared to go forward with. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks, Raymond. Stuart?

 

Stuart Black

Yes, thanks, Deputy First Minister. Your first question around the clarity of offer for inward investors, I think we work particularly well with Scottish Development International. If we look at the example that the First Minister mentioned around Sumitomo, that was very much a partnership approach. But also fundamental to that was the involvement of Highland Council as the planning authority and the performance of their team, I think, was particularly outstanding in terms of that project.

The project received its planning permission within four months, which is the requirement for major developments. I know from speaking with the Japanese company how important that was. I do feel that the partnership around inward investment between Scottish Development International, ourselves and local authorities is fundamental to making sure that they have that welcoming and supportive landing in Scotland. I think that's the first point I would make.

I think around the second point around renewables and community benefit, I do commend what Comhairle nan Eilean Siar has done, because they're working very collaboratively with the industry so that industry knows the expectations of the community. I think the first deal that they've done is excellent for the community and clearly there's more to come.

I also think Highland Council's social value charter is very important in setting out what the Council wants to achieve from inward investment. I think we need to have collaboration amongst the developers coming to Highland Council as there is with the ones coming to the Western Isles.

Thirdly, on the skills, I don't necessarily agree that the private sector having to set up skills academies is a failure. If you look at BAE Systems in Glasgow, for example, they've done an apprenticeship training facility in collaboration with SDS and local partners. I think my main point here is if you look at that slide, £110 billion of investment, that is a huge amount coming to our region. We've got to maximise that in terms of public and private collaboration. I do think around skills, exactly as Frank has said, that collaboration with the private sector is going to be fundamental to delivering the skills we need for the jobs to come. Thanks.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks so much, Stuart. Could I just say that point on roles, just throwing it out here as something I think is worthy of more conversation around the different roles that we can play. I've had two investors speak to me, I'm sure they speak to you as well, two major £1 billion investors looking for opportunities.

They come and speak to us and they say what have you got for us? I wonder, often they are looking for investments that are bigger than any one local authority, often that's not the case, or they're looking for investments that can be pulled together. I know HIE have an important role in doing this and I've been speaking to HIE particularly about just clarity on our roles.

But as Raymond said, none of this can - local authorities are literally the frontline of this, you are on the frontline and you are the closest to your communities, so nothing can be done around investment without local authorities driving it. But in terms of my own personal never-ending bias towards the Highlands and Islands, I'm always keen that we get the biggest share of the money. On that, I'm going to - I think it was Rob.

 

Rob Dickson

Thank you very much, Deputy First Minister. Rob Dickson, I'm Director of industry and events at Visit Scotland, so inevitably I'm going to shift the focus a little bit to tourism for a moment or two. Tourism is the economy in many parts of the Highlands and Islands, not exclusively so but it's fundamental to economic prosperity in many parts of the Highlands and Islands.

I think we recognise that the quality of tourism continues to rise, you saw that yourself, Deputy First Minister, on Friday night at the Highlands and Islands Thistle Awards. There are world class organisations delivering world class product, that continue to sustain the quality of the brand we have internationally. More now than ever we have to ensure that we sustain that brand because the competitiveness in the international market is greater. The challenge for us is to continue to bring as many international visitors as we can to visit all parts of Scotland and experience the quality of that brand.

There's reference in the covering report to tourism, specifically to the visitor levy and it's timely given that we publish the guidance for the visitor levy literally on Friday. It was sent to local authorities on Friday and it's available on Visit Scotland's website. Just to maybe think about the context of the Regional Economic Partnership and the strategy in the context of tourism and the visitor levy.

Whilst Edinburgh have led the way on the implementation of the levy to date, I don't think there's any doubt that, as the paper mention, the regional thinking about the visitor levy has been led here in the Highlands and Islands. We'll continue to support the discussions and the development that you're doing on that work.

The levy embeds a local by design approach, a place-based approach that Alistair talked about. It does so in a national framework that gives the ability to work on the delivery of medium-term economic strategies, with a relentless focus on place and with exceptionally at the moment a reasonably high degree of certainty around funding, which is clearly very welcome indeed. The levy therefore allows sustains co-investment with the private sector, which was mentioned as well. I think for Visit Scotland, we want to see the framing of the levy in the context of the Regional Economic Strategy and in the context of the work of the REP and the discussions here.

Therefore, continuing to look at how that progresses local economies through the discussions at CoHI I think will be welcome and continuing to focus on it, as Councillor Bremner said, as part of what the Regional Economic Partnership is doing I think is important. As somebody who spends a lot of time at Regional Economic Partnership meetings and looking at various strategies, I think this is very strong. I think it has the right framework within which we can operate and within which the visitor levy and tourism can make a contribution.

A final couple of observations, the focus on intelligence hubs and the data that is available from tourism I think has been fed into that on a national and regional basis. Certainly at Visit Scotland we stand ready to contribute to that and trying to make sure that we get the data from the levy to support the understanding of local economies as strongly as we can. There's a lot there that I think from a tourism perspective supports the direction that's set out in the strategy, the work of the REP and actually connects to some of the points that have been made really clearly this morning, which is clearly good alignment and a positive thing for the future.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. First Minister?

 

John Swinney

Thanks very much, Kate. Two points that I'd like to make. First of all is really to highlight the point that Stuart Black made, which was that I think really welcome commendation of the alignment of interest and activity and involvement in security investment. Personally, I'm greatly heartened to hear that feedback that we've got an aligned investment proposition that's able to be deployed. Obviously I want government to be very much supportive of that. But hearing that from Stuart I think is a timely reminder of the fact that we actually know what has to be done here to land investment, it's just we've got to make sure it actually happens. Those two things are not always closely aligned.

It's good to hear it was the case in Sumitomo, I know of many other examples where it is the case, but I just want to reinforce the importance of making sure that we are all working in that fashion. That includes government and the Deputy First Minister has a clear mandate from me to be focused on - as have the rest of the ministerial team - on investment, investment, investment. There's no doubt in their minds about what they've got to do, so therefore roadblocks being put in the way by the Scottish Government are kind of not going to be very welcome when it reaches my desk. Encouraging partners to think there's a willing support to line up our different contributions is important in that process.

My second point is really to extend an invitation in the light of what Alistair Dodds said about the need to remove obstacles and to take a place-based approach. I'm very, very supportive of the place-based concept. I think actually that has much more fruits of opportunity than generic propositions. I would make the offer that I'm keen to hear what might make a difference, what would be the interventions that could deliver better outcomes. That's very much the mandate that the housing ministers have got from me as well, that there will be approaches in different parts of the country.

If we think about the situation, a bespoke proposition has been agreed with a number of local authorities who are dealing with particular challenges in relation to temporary accommodation. We've done that on a place-based basis because they've got a much more acute presentation of the problem than is happening around the country.

But there'll be other problems, there'll be other challenges and obstacles, so I simply would reiterate that willingness to look at these place-based concepts and to find solutions. Obviously resources will always been the issue, that Kathleen was raising about childcare, your resource will come into that, it's going to be relevant. But then if there are choices to be made about what will actually activate more economic activity as a consequence, then I'm very open to exploring what that might be.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much. Kathleen?

 

Kathleen Robertson

Thank you, DFM. Actually building on Raymond's points and your own about clarity of roles and the First Minister's about resources, I think this all kind of comes together. We're all struggling as authorities with resources and I think one of the things is we really need to keep things simple so that we're not wasting resources and we're not causing duplication.

I think some other councils probably feel the same, but for an example from Moray, for example, we have a Moray Economic Partnership, we feed that into HIREP and we feel that into CoHI. Quite often, to be quite honest, we've sat and heard the same paper three times, so there is a degree of actually focusing on the clarity of roles as to what we're all trying to achieve. I think we need to make sure that we use our resources to optimise the benefits, so I would really just throw that into the ring as well.

 

Kate Forbes

Can I ask a question? How do you think we should change that then? The roles and responsibilities, would you prefer a conversation about the clarity of roles? The example from Stuart about planning, plus attracting investment, plus engaging with communities, how do you think we should change that?

 

Kathleen Robertson

I think it just needs to be streamlined because as I say, I think we're struggling from a lot of duplication and we're feeding into different strategies and different groups. Aiming to have one overall strategy that CoHI can own, for example, I think that would be a good step to take forward.

 

Kate Forbes

Okay, thanks. Frank?

 

Frank Mitchell

Just going back to the question posed around skills and what we can do there, I suppose as a recently retired chief executive in the energy industry where I did converse with universities and colleges occasionally and also set up our own training centres, it ultimately came down to me about the flexibility at that local level and the pace of being able to do things quickly. That I could then combine that with financial investment and help infrastructure into colleges and work with universities. If that could be aligned and they were truly listening to what businesses need and I could see that feedback and that gave me the confidence to invest in it.

That's my own personal experience in doing that from my background. I've talked to the BAE about their decision, £12 million is a significant investment they did there, but I know they could have done other things as well. But it still shouldn't be overlooked as anything other than a positive investment.

I think what I would like to do, there's a meeting of the skills subcommittee end of October coming up, I'd like to think that we could work with UHI and with HIE to come back at a future meeting, maybe the next Highlands and Islands Convention, about the practicalities of what the opportunity is for co-investment and how we can make that happen. What flexibility is required to allow that to happen at a local level, at a place that allows that to then be a legacy for that community. If that's something that you can take on board and come back to me on.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you very much. Thanks, it's Gary, is it?

 

Gary Robinson

Yes, thanks very much. I wanted to come back to the discussion around community benefit and in particular maybe community benefit versus individual benefit. Because I think that's been one of the challenges here in Shetland that we've seen over the last 50 years, because while we've had the oil industry here and the community has undoubtedly benefited from that, our individuals, the people in the islands have suffered from the highest costs of energy throughout that period. The highest costs of petrol and diesel, highest costs of heating oil, for example.

As we move into an era of renewable energy, which I personally welcome, I do think we need to look at how we balance community benefit with individual benefit.

Because community benefit has brought many great things to the islands, but what good is that to people if they're sat freezing in their homes? Good quality housing, as we'll discuss later, is a key determinant of health and one of the main things that makes it so is having a warm home. So I think we do need to balance how much we go after community benefit and how much we seek to bring the cost of energy down for individuals. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks for that. Okay, yes, Euan and then…

 

Euan McVicar

Just one very practical action, for the first time in a while the steering group in good practice in community benefit for offshore renewable energies is meeting later this week in fact. I think there's a real opportunity there to feed this discussion into that group and to create the opportunity for a national framework that allows the type of local flexibility we've been talking about. If we had that statement of principles at a national level then that local flexibility could really help drive forward a lot of what we're talking about. I think it's on the 11th.

 

Kate Forbes

That sounds very helpful. I think this is a good paper. The key is going to be the delivery plan and the key is the practical implementation and I'm very struck by Kathleen's points around clarity on roles and responsibilities. I think there's a lot more work that's required there in clarifying that, so in terms of some of the biggest blockages to getting progress on all the different streams, clarity and understanding who owns those blockages at each level.

Where is it financial, where is it a process issue, does that sit entirely - so we know, for example, when it comes to planning and consenting, these are two of the biggest hurdles to anybody choosing to invest. Consenting clearly sits within the Scottish Government and is the focus, intense focus of improvement from me and from the First Minister. But planning clearly would sit at a more local level and needs to be equally a focus, I think, in terms of getting that four months that Stuart talked about as more of a norm than an exception.

Then there's other questions, so where a major investor of multibillion pounds comes and says right, we're interested, tell me what you've got, what can we invest in, that we're not scrabbling around looking for ideas. But actually across Scottish Government or enterprise agencies and local authorities there is absolutely crystal clear clarity on what the pipeline is, where there can be investments to deliver. Those would be my two big priorities coming out of this paper. Raymond?

 

Raymond Bremner

Just a last point, hearing what Kathleen was saying there. I think though when we are being clear, I think the role of the REPs is very much an owned focus. That's why this slide actually makes it quite clear what the HIREP are actually focusing in on and what they can actually see in terms of - I was speaking to you about outcomes earlier on, but it's not just about outcomes. It's about delivery, it's about being able to review, which I don't mind the word so long as the review comes up with outcomes and tangible benefits that you can actually put your finger on.

I think the different forums, you can have the same paper, the same topic coming in front of these different forums, but they're having the discussions around them for different reasons, because they bring something - you can also have them in a political space as well and you would expect that to happen. You can have them in a community space and you would expect that to be happening as well. They will all discuss jobs, they will all discussion community benefit, they will all discuss housing. Councils do that as well, so it's just making sure that, as Kathleen said, we know who's actually doing what and who's expected to come up with the outcomes and the deliveries.

I think that the forums that we're looking at, we are going to see them sharing - having the same paper coming to them about - not the same paper, but the same subject material coming to them to have that discussion. It's right that they have that discussion, but in terms of outcomes and tangible benefits and what have you, then there's a clarity required as to who's going to be expected to lead and deliver on that. I think that's more of what I think that we would be looking at, thanks.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. I suppose as we start to draw this to a close - sorry, Emma, you wanted to come in and I keep forgetting about you because you’re there on the end.

 

Emma Macdonald

No, it's okay, we've moved on, it's fine.

 

Kate Forbes

Are you sure?

 

Emma Macdonald

No, it's fine, I don't remember what I was going to say.

 

Kate Forbes

My question is, in terms of actions, there's two there that I think we've skirted around and talked about. Can anybody contribute any specific actions that you think need to be added to the excellent work that the Regional Economic Partnership is currently doing? Or things that you want to see before the next meeting of CoHI fully in six months' time? It sounds like a roaring endorsement. Sorry, Heather.

 

Heather Woodbridge

Just briefly, thank you, Deputy First Minister, I think I'd be really interested to know if you have duplication across all of these structures. Because I think the value has to be - we only have limited resource and I think it will be really important to make sure we're spending that in the best place. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Yes, it's a good point and there will be an element of that. My view of the Regional Economic Partnerships is that they are on the frontline, delivering, they're implementing and then at times feeding back to government. Often times saying right, government, you need to adapt, as Alistair set out, what would work for us is X, Y and Z. We can have that conversation then about flexibility.

That would be my sense of things. There is nothing else like the Regional Economic Partnerships where they can be flexible, local and totally delivery-oriented. Hopefully as peers, also saying well actually the Western Isles was able to achieve this, so come on you guys, why can't you do it? The equivalent, Orkney, sharing best case example as well. That would be my sense of how it works. Frank?

 

Frank Mitchell

Just to add to the co-investment opportunities around skills, to work with HIE and UHI on that, within the framework of the REP.

 

Kate Forbes

Right. Anything else? The three things are clarity about roles and responsibilities when it comes to external finance basically.

Secondly, around community benefit and that overlaps massively with the next subject that we're discussing around housing, because some of that community benefit will be around legacy investment and infrastructure.

Then the third one is around the co-invest on skills, which actually those three elements cut across, I think, Raymond, all the different strands you were talking about, because clearly all three are critical to population attraction.

Okay, Raymond, do you want to sum up?

 

Raymond Bremner

I think I've done plenty of summing up. Yes, I'm happy. HIREP I'm sure will be regularly reporting to CoHI, so I'll be expecting to see the narrative next time that we're back, with more tangible benefits and outcomes. Yes, looking forward to it.

 

Kate Forbes

Great, well thanks very much and thanks to you all for the work on that. We are going to close for lunch shortly. Sincere thanks to the First Minister for coming along this morning.

When we come back, Paul McLennan will be leading on the substantive action around housing. Please be back in your seats for a sharp start at 1:45, so if you can be back in your seats for 1:40, that will allow us to keep to time. Thanks very much.

 

[BREAK]

 

Kate Forbes

Welcome back, that was great food and even better cake, so I hope you stocked up on that. Wonderful, we're now moving into the substantive discussion of the day in the form of housing. I am so struck, as I'm sure you are all struck, that really every other aspect of our ambitions and our plans and our hopes and our dreams for the Highlands and Islands rely on adequate, secure, affordable housing. Quite clearly it's probably one of the top issues that is raised with us, with particular challenges in rural areas.

I already shared the example from this morning at Staney Hill, where the challenge around being able to deliver 300 homes and ensure that there are enough construction companies that can actually bid for the work and deliver the work when there's so much other work going on and yet those workers all need a house, reveals a sort of chicken and egg challenge that we have.

A lot has clearly been achieved through joint working and cooperation, delivering good housing outcomes for our rural and island communities. It would be really useful, I'm going to hand over to Paul McLennan, our Housing Minister, but if the theme of this morning has been rather than diagnose the problem or explain the problem, let the question be what is each of our responsibilities to contribute to solving it, then it would be helpful to really focus our minds on that and take that away in the form of an action.

We do have the Rural and Islands Housing Action Plan published last year. It would be useful to understand from you where the particular hurdles are and more than that, perhaps your ideas of what you're already doing to try and deliver that. I'll hand over to Paul McLennan to share some of the detail of the work that's currently underway by the Scottish Government and then he will chair the discussion on that. Over to you, Paul.

 

Paul McLennan

Thank you very much, Deputy First Minister. It's great to be back here, I was here about nine months ago. We talked about Staney Hill and I was here seeing Staney Hill then. It literally was just a big Staney Hill at that particular time, so to see the development in nine months' time has been really good to see. I'll come on and make some comments, but there were comments made this morning which I think probably feed into our discussion.

One was talking about - I think the First Minister talked about alignment of interest and I think that's incredibly important and the role of economic development. The DFM and I have had a chat around about that, around about investment and the role of economic development, how important it is that it's combined with housing. Clarity of roles was also mentioned and I think that's incredibly important. I think we talked about regional transformational opportunities and I think it's unique. We need to make sure if we've got the housing opportunities where we are just now, time is critical.

Co-investment, I think Frank mentioned about skills, but it's co-investment outwith that as well and legacy opportunities, I think, is another thing to look at. As I said, at Staney Hill, when we talked about transformational opportunities, around about 300 houses here, it would make a huge difference in terms of that. So I'm really looking forward to the discussion. I've had the pleasure of I think visiting every local authority that's represented here today over my period in time, because every local authority is different. We'll see some in the case studies later on today, we'll see they're all different and they're all slightly different challenges.

For me there's a number of things, I think, to look at. We know how much difficulty at the moment we're in with the housing emergency. I think in terms of rural and island areas of Scotland, I think there are huge opportunities as well as the challenges we were talking about. I think what the DFM had talked about this morning was looking at the opportunities and looking at the art of the possible. I think that's really important, about what we need to be doing to look at that. As I said, we've declared the housing emergency a few months ago and kind of looked at that. We set out three strategic, I suppose, pillars at that particular point.

One was about high quality permanent homes. Secondly was about the right homes in the right places and I think one of the challenges we face in rural and remote Scotland is it's not just around about, for example, I know we were talking about Staney Hill, we're talking about 300 houses here, making sure it's looking at different parts of the islands and it's looking at different parts of rural communities as well. It can't just be around about the main bases, about where we are at the moment. Of course everyone has the right to a permanent home, so we face homelessness issues in rural Highlands and Islands, as well as in urban Scotland as well.

We're investing £600 million this year and again that's a challenge in a time of economic hardship, at this particular time. We've delivered more than 10,000 affordable homes in rural and island communities. There's a key workers issue, I think there's £25 million that we kind of talked around about that as well and what are we doing about the key workers. I think when you're talking about key workers in different parts of Scotland, there's flexibility around about that to give to say what's a key worker, for example? Moray as against Highland as against Shetland, so the key worker definition I think is incredibly important and we're flexible around about that.

I think one of the important things for me to come out with today is around about collaborative work and that's between local authorities, housing associations and obviously looking about economic development opportunities, around about that as well. One of the things we've tried to do with the Affordable Housing Supply Programme is trying to be as flexible as we possibly can. We've talked around about the issue of homelessness, where we're looking at voids and acquisitions and so on and how we tackle that particular period of time.

But what I'm really keen to do, as I said, is listen to what you think are some of the actions we should be taking forward. There is nothing off the table, we're talking around about trying to be as flexible as we can in terms of looking at how HRAs are developed, how we can work closely in terms of economic developers, in terms of looking at our development agencies as well, what we can do around about that. So without further ado, I'm going to pass over to Neil, director of development services and Anita Jamieson, executive manager of housing at Shetland Islands Council to talk to the paper. Neil, Anita, I don't know who's…   

 

Neil Grant

Thank you very much, Chair, Housing Minister. Both myself and Anita will talk you through a Shetland case study. We also have case studies from Highlands and Argyll and Bute. I guess they demonstrate that they are just three local authority experiences and I guess it's important to get that context. In the agenda papers we've provided the three short case studies to show the different perspectives. We will discuss the Shetland case study particularly in the presentation and the leaders, political leaders and chief executives from Argyll and Bute and Highland Council may wish to raise any points from their respective studies in the discussion. Then our political leader, Emma Macdonald, will sum up, including some key asks.

The next slide, the issues of ageing population, depopulation and fragile communities with a backdrop of major infrastructure projects and new industries in a confined geography brings many challenges, which we've spoken about earlier in today's session. In Shetland Islands Council, housing is part of the development directorate. That means that housing is sitting with community planning, with planning services, with economic development and transport planning. We try to take a place-based future looking strategic approach. We also have a strong and effective partnership led by our community planning partnership and take a team Shetland approach and I think we are good at doing that.

The Shetland local housing market partnership is supported by a very productive and agile working relationship with the Scottish Government More Homes team. I can't pay enough tribute to the people in that team, who have made developments happen and the Staney Hill is an example of that, where there have been huge challenges. But at the end of the day, we've worked through it and made the achievements. We meet frequently with the More Homes team and Hjaltland Housing Association. We meet frequently with other stakeholders in the process of planning and strategising new home delivery.

Housing supply is key. Easy to say but in an increasingly difficult and challenging environment it's not so easy to do. The cost of new builds has risen, I guess I'm talking about in Shetland, from somewhere around £1,800 per square metre prior to the pandemic and Brexit, to over £3,000 per square metre currently. The cost of construction in Shetland is 25 per cent higher than on the mainland. New house build is really difficult and innovation is really important, as is the role of the private sector. We're beginning to see some good examples from the big new industries in providing workforce accommodation. This is also something that the HIREP housing subgroup is helping to make happen at a regional level.

I think maybe at this point, Housing Minister, I'll hand across to Anita Jamieson, who will take you through the Shetland case study. Thank you.

 

Anita Jamieson

Thank you. As Neil explained, there are three case studies attached to the paper and I'd like to thank both Allan Maguire from Highland Council and Douglas Whyte from Argyll and Bute for their collaboration in putting together the papers and the case studies. I'm going to do a bit of a detailed dive into Shetland as a case study, but the respective representatives from the other two local authorities are better qualified to speak for their areas, so we'll give them the opportunity to add to the case studies as well.

In terms of Shetland, a lot of what Emma said in her introduction around the kind of history, geography and the day-to-day of Shetland I'll try and touch on in the presentation. Shetland, just for context, a bit of scene setting in Shetland, there's over 100 islands in Shetland, 15 of them are inhabited. We have a total population of around 23,000 people. Nine of our inhabited islands have council housing stock on them and the local authority has a total stock of 1,738 properties.

We've lost about a third of our stock through right to buy and we're currently sitting with a waiting list of 650 people. At the end of quarter 1, we had 91 households in temporary accommodation through homelessness and although that number has come down over the past few years, people are still spending a long time in temporary accommodation waiting for that permanent solution. The average time spent in temporary accommodation, as a snapshot at the end of quarter 1, is 332 days.

Emma touched on this this morning as well in her introduction, around just the logistics of Shetland. Sometimes maybe looking at a map, it's not as clear just how stark some of those distances are. Those of you arriving at the airport would have been welcomed to a 35-minute drive to get you up to Lerwick. Lerwick up to Brae, the main town in the north mainland is another half an hour's drive away. If you're heading up to the spaceport it's around 55 miles that you have to drive, plus take two ferries which take a further half an hour.

Lerwick to Aberdeen, 40 miles by sea, if you're brave in the winter and an hour by air. Now all of that adds to the cost of everything, the cost of living in Shetland is impacted by every mile of freight cost that's added on to everything we do, externally and internally transported. In terms of housing delivery, even getting staff and repairs up to the North Isles adds quite a substantial chunk of time onto the staff's day.

Aware that this was a post-lunch, they thought they'd do some pretty pictures just to help things along. The kind of scenic, I suppose, picture postcard side of Shetland is around puffins and ponies and you will see those around. There's also the traditional industries in Shetland which have supported the economy for many years. Fishing and agriculture in particular is the mainstay of our economy and produces some famous products that are widely exported. You see Shetland salmon, for example, Shetland mussels and Shetland scallops on menus just about everywhere.

Knitwear in Shetland, wool again has been a traditional industry that's endured alongside all the newer industries that have arrived. We've just had a very successful wool week in Shetland, where people from all over the world arrived in Shetland last week to find out about wool, knitting, spinning and the famous Fair Isle patterns.

But bringing this back to housing, again the Shetland TV series has raised the profile and awareness of Shetland across the world and made Jimmy Perez's house particularly famous. Sadly it's not a typical example of housing in Shetland. It's a rather iconic Lodberrie, built in the 1770s as part of a merchant's business where they had the boats coming right in. It's built into the sea and the boats came in and there were webs of tunnels underneath that helped smuggle in various products like Dutch gin apparently. That is a very substantial house from the 1770s and the world's sadly moved on from those types of properties.

Into the 1970s with the next slide, oil and gas, particularly oil hit Shetland in the 1970s. This is an aerial view of the Sullom Voe terminal which is built on 1,000 acres of land in the north mainland of Shetland. It was built between 1975 and 1981, certainly at the time it was the largest oil terminal in Europe. I'm not sure if it still has that accolade. But the arrival of oil in a rock in the middle of the North Sea had a major impact on the economy and on Shetland as a whole. I'll come onto some of the details of the impact on housing in later slides.

Subsequently, between 2014 and 2016, TotalEnergies built a gas plant just at this side of the oil terminal and that had a massive impact on particularly the private rental market in Shetland. Again I'll come onto some more detail around that in later slides.

The next slide is a lot of words rather than pictures, sorry. This is the kind of history side of the oil industry arrival and what that did to the housing world. The population of Shetland increased by 31 per cent in the 10-year period around then. At that time, the Council's housing stock increased by 1,000 units, so a massive increase. Built for quantity and speed, not quality and sustainability. I think it was mentioned this morning about how we need to be thinking about legacy in terms of housing being about sustainability and for the future, not just built quickly and quickly in quantity.

The result of that, while reserves and income made significant changes to services and quality of life in Shetland, it didn't quite have that impact on the HRA. The HRA was left with the debt for building these houses and then additional debt for the kind of repair and investment that was required to maintain them. The debt on the HRA peaked at just under £60 million in 1992 and having that left debt constraint investment in the stock. At one point, 66 pence in every pound was being spent on debt.

In 1999 to 2001, the stock transfer process became the kind of only game in town and the big carrot for Shetland was debt write-off as part of that process. However, there were serious valuation issues around the stock transfer proposal and it failed before we got to ballot and ended up retaining the housing stock.

On the back of retaining the housing stock, that debt continued to be quite a thorn in the side of the HRA and through a lengthy and ultimately successful process, negotiations between the UK and Scottish Governments for a couple of years ended in 2013/14 with an agreement for a partial debt settlement. There are certainly a couple of people in this room who were involved in those negotiations.

It was a bit of a landmark for the housing revenue account to be in a position where the debt was taken back to what the Scottish average was at the time. It gave us a position where we could look at preparing an HRA business plan that actually looked at investing in our existing stock and looking at a future plan where the local authority could get back into delivery of housing.

Moving on to the current pressures and where we are today, I'll come onto some more detail in later slides, but will illustrate some of the issues around our demographic profiles. We have a shrinking contractor market, we don't have speculative developers as such in Shetland, we tend to have contractors that bid for work.

The composition of our housing market, I'll bring a slide on that, but our housing market is very different certainly to the Scottish average. We have a range of future demand pressures that are piling up and knocking on the door. Most of our private development is self-build properties on windfall sites, but cost impacts are really having an impact on that market as well and the cost of living is adding to that.

A major current pressure is around infrastructure project demand, which has been touched on earlier in the discussions today. We're seeing new industries coming in and major projects around renewables, onshore and offshore, which are creating additional pressures in terms of housing in our fairly self-contained market.

Our demographic picture on the next slide should actually have orange boxes, but they're blue and grey. The blue boxes are the 10-year projections from a 2018 base and the formerly orange, now grey boxes are the 25-year projections. A real concern that we have no growth in our working age population over the next 10 or 25 years and a projected population decline of six per cent.

Meanwhile, our over 66 and over 85s population are seeing massive increases, with a spike in the over 85s of 115 per cent over the 25-year projection. Obviously we need that working age population, we need Shetland to be sustainable into the future. There's a lot of work going on to try and see how we can collectively work to address that gap.

Population and household projections, that graph on the left shows a relatively static 10-year picture with population and then beyond that, the decline. Meanwhile, a rapid increase in household projections and then a subsequent decline. That's very much illustrating the demand for smaller households farming.

In terms of housing supply, our HNDA, housing need and demand assessment outputs are showing the need for about roughly 1,000 units of housing over the next 10 years. Approximately 54 per cent of which needs to be affordable.

If you look at the composition of our housing market, we have much more owner-occupied properties again that self-build, windfall sites tend to be the owner-occupied market. We've got 23 per cent social housing, so broadly similar, we have one housing association and the local authority providing social rented housing. The private rental market is the big issue, it's tiny, it's very expensive and was absolutely saturated by the building of the gas plant in 2014 to 2016.

We're also seeing quite a decline in the private rental market, I would say as a result of the quantity of regulation that's been introduced. We've had I think in the region of 400 applications for short-term let licences. Trying to find alternative affordable housing to plug those gaps is a bit of a challenge. The composition of our market is causing real issues around recruitment and retention, basically because there are no private rented options.

People would tend to look at a private rented option to move somewhere like Shetland to get established, get their families moved, get everything sorted and size up the place and work out where you want to live. But if that's not there, where do people go? We've already got quite a pressure on our housing list, so it's a difficult one to crack. Possibly if there was some mechanism to actually allow some kind of gateway tenancies, that could bring people in.

Size of properties is an issue here as well. We have mainly detached houses and everything that was built in the 1970s was built as three-bedroom family houses. We've got a growing demand for smaller household sizes, so we've got a real mismatch in the supply and demand. We've also got very few flats mainly detached properties and that also impacts I think as well on some of the fuel poverty and energy issues.

Renewable energy has been talked about a lot this morning. This is part of the Viking wind farm. Those turbines are 155 metres high, that slide shows about a fifth of the scale of the whole Viking wind farm. Those blades are 60 metres long each and I think it was mentioned this morning that there's quite a divide in the community about seeing that on your landscape and not benefiting from it and paying very high energy costs to live here.

Having some of the highest levels of fuel poverty in Scotland and driving up the road and seeing that and not feeling the benefit is really difficult for Shetland as a community. There are more plans for future energy and a just transition for oil and gas, but I think that the community in Shetland really needs to see some actual benefits from renewable energy in a different way.

What are we doing about all these challenges? Well as Neil said in his introduction, housing sits as part of the development directorate in Shetland Islands Council. I'm in a team with colleagues from planning, community planning, transport planning and economic development. We're working on a collective, collaborative place-based approach to align our strategic thinking and plan for future services, looking at how we have a sustainable future for Shetland, boosting community vitality, advancing economic wellbeing and making Shetland a great place to live, work, study, invest and visit.

From a housing perspective, we're working in partnership to support the construction industry. We had in April/May time in this very room, we invited our local construction industry, the supply chain and the local agents to a meeting jointly hosted by the Council, Hjaltland Housing Association and local HIE, trying to present the pipeline of future work around housing in Shetland. We held facilitated workshops to hear from the industry on the challenges and barriers for industry. It was a really positive event.

On the back of that we've produced a report on the event, a website and we've carried out a survey to find out how the local construction industry wants to continue and take that dialogue forward. Some real issues around just the size and scale and the changes post-COVID in the labour force. Also some real issues around procurement that I think we need to be listening to and thinking differently about.

Effective partnership with our housing association and as Neil mentioned, with the Scottish Government More Homes team. We do have a really effective partnership.

We work with Hjaltland both on the development of new housing, but also operationally on nomination agreements and trying to ensure that we're operating a joint waiting list and using nomination agreements to get people ideally through the system quickly and housed.

The regular meetings that Neil referred to are chaired regularly, developing a team Shetland approach, maximising what we can deliver and has been referred to. I think Staney Hill is a really good example of that, pulling in the infrastructure funding and being able to unlock a major site. We've been trying to use the master plan sites so that we can move to a rolling phased delivery plan. If we're going to ramp up and deliver 1,000 houses in the next 10 years, we need to have those two, the Knab and Staney Hill sites available so that we have some flexibility around how we take those forward.

We're also working to develop alternative tenures to address the market gaps and market failure that I spoke about. The composition of the market shows that we have clear evidence of gaps and market failure. We need to find ways to plug those gaps with affordable options, alongside more social rented housing. We need to find some way of attracting and retaining the population. Mid-market rent is something that we've been working on for some time and I think we could be maybe finding ways of making it easier for local authorities to do that. It's been quite a challenge to try and get that up and running.

We've currently commissioned some supplementary research to the local housing strategy around key workers and empty homes policies. Again looking in detail at both public and private sector demand for key worker accommodation and kind of looking at the responsibilities of a split between public and private sector around delivery.

We've had some really constructive discussions with renewables companies as we're moving into this next phase of renewable energy. Learning lessons from the oil era, speaking about legacy and liability, we I think suffered a lot more liability than we got legacy in terms of housing from the oil industry. But arguably we also learned a lot of lessons around what was probably the community wealth building of 50 years ago.

We're looking at the moment with SSE around a case study that focuses on that, focusing on additionality. Looking at the range of things that can be done within a different type of partnership that brings additionality, that brings in some private sector response to those demands.

We're also supporting proposals around community-led housing. It's a really niche market and it needs capacity to deliver. It's very difficult for small organisations and I think our colleagues in Orkney are maybe a bit further ahead than we are in terms of the maturity of the development companies that are taking these forward. I think particularly for areas where they've got locally owned wind farms there are real opportunities to do more of that.

It would be good if the Rural and Islands Fund could continue. I think often these are small numbers but they can make a big difference. But the cost base that we're seeing across Shetland and particularly in the more remote areas that are looking to do community-led housing, it's going to be really challenging. Building standards, the modern levels of building standards are adding £40,000 to £50,000 a unit and there are question marks when you're starting to look at value for money and affordability around those figures.

The final point there, the demographics slide I showed you, that's really concerning in terms of what the housing demand is for particularly supported and specialist provision into the future. We're working with health and social care colleagues on business cases around shifting that balance of care and what that means for housing demand and how we manage that across an island community. That's the end of my presentation. I'm going to hand back to Emma to conclude.

 

Emma Macdonald

Thank you very much, Anita, for your presentation. I think it was a really good canter through Shetland's history in housing and I think it has laid out where we've been and where we are now. I think it's really important to note that although the Council, Shetland Islands Council, haven't declared a housing emergency, we very much believe we are in the eye of the storm and we know that we are facing real challenges.

As we've heard, we're at the centre of an energy transition. We've got massive opportunities coming our way, but we also know that we've learned lots of lessons from before. So we need to make sure that we work with developers so that we don't end up in that same situation again. As we've heard, we've got an ageing demographic and falling working age population, which in itself brings some challenges.

I'm just going to maybe run through these key asks here. The first one is, what we're asking is we recognise the unique nature of housing challenges in a rural and island setting, but we need to recognise that the solutions will be different for every island. So what will work in Orkney won't necessarily work for Shetland. Even though we're quite close we still have - we need to find what works and have that flexibility.

The next one is simply local authorities' ability to develop appropriate alternative tenures, mid-market rent or build for sale. I think that just really is about that flexibility, give us the opportunity to do what we know works here locally. I think that would help with that.

The next one is to strengthen the role of the existing local housing market partnerships. We work really closely here, we've all heard today about how important partnership working is at every level. I think anything that can help strengthen that is really important. To recognise that housing is a profession and not a resource, we know that housing is the thing that is important to everybody who lives in our community. We know that it makes a difference to how people live well, it makes a difference to their health, so housing is really important that we recognise the value that that brings.

The next one is to support the growth of construction skills and SMEs in rural areas. As we heard from Anita in her presentation, we have started doing work around that and bringing people together to look at what skills we have. But we need to do more to strengthen that, so that the industry and the construction industry know that there are developments and how they can work with us in that area, provide policy support and planning and consenting for proposals for significant employment and workforce implications.

I think that's really key that we do that in tandem and that we work together and that we recognise that decisions that are made in a planning environment have an implication for our housing strategy. We need to make sure there's an alignment there. Joined up policy approaches to dealing with ineffective stock. Again that's another area where we think it could be strengthened to make a significant difference.

The last one is an ask around refreshing the remote and rural minimum income study. Now this research was undertaken in 2013 and we've found that invaluable when we're planning our strategies, when we're doing things around our annual child poverty action report. But what we're finding now is actually the data within it is no longer accurate. We've had a pandemic, we've had the cost of living crisis.

We know that it's between 20 and 60 per cent more expensive to live here, but if we're relying on this data to drive our policies and decision-making, we need to really make sure that that data is up-to-date and current. We would really ask that we could refresh that in a way that really helped us understand what the true reality is of living here. Because it all plays into the housing ask and what we're trying to do to deliver good affordable housing for our communities. Thank you, I think that's us.

 

Paul McLennan

Thank you for that. Before I think I'll bring in Highland Council next, I'm going to ask if there are any specific questions of Shetland Council. I don't know if anybody wants to indicate a specific question. If not, we'll be discussing these issues obviously later on, but I don't know if anybody's got a specific question of Shetland at the moment. No, not seeing any hands go up, so Derek, probably over to yourself. Thanks very much, Emma.

 

Derek Brown

Thanks, Minister. Can I first of all thanks the Shetland Islands Council for preparing the paper and for giving us the opportunity to feed into the case study. Thank you very much to them. I'm going to build on what Council Bremner has already said in the previous item. Obviously Highland Council is a population of 235,000 people across a huge geographic area. We have an ageing population and we have significant drift in population from more rural areas to urban centres and indeed from to outwith our boundaries.

Just to tie up a few things, a lot of the things as drivers are very similar to what Shetland has gone through. We have currently 9,000 people first priority waiting list for social housing. In terms of HRA, we have a similar debt profile to that which was described by Shetland. We have 15,000 social houses, we have an HRA of about £65 million, 42 per cent of around about £29 million going straight out as debt payments. That obviously causes us to have limitations as to what we can do through the HRA.

We have revised our housing needs demand assessment in light of the developments we have in energy, the Inverness and Cromarty Firth Green Freeport and indeed the ASTI Strategic Transmission Investment Programme. We estimate we need to build 24,000 houses over the next 10 years. We tend to do about 1,200 a year, 700 in the private sector, 500 affordable social, so we need to double that. We've estimated a cost of that at about £2.8 billion over that 10-year period, which sounds like a big number but just bear with me, Minister, we think that there are things that make it more doable.

I suppose one of the things we're building on is we do have a well-established housing partnership forum for public and private sector partners to come together. I think that our track record in developing housing at that scale is something that I think I'm getting a lot of reassurance from myself. The paper does mention some constraints and the biggest one really is cost. Inflationary costs around the cost of housing development have become pretty prohibitive. Obviously the lack of finance and the lack of available developers - I was listening very careful to what Shetland were saying about working with the developer partners - is obviously an issue.

We will have a housing conference in a fortnight, which I'm delighted to say, Minister, that you've agreed to attend and I really appreciate it. We'll focus on four things in that conference, how we can increase available finance for housing and how we can develop the use of land and from different sources. I noted with interest the offers from Crown Estate Scotland this morning, which is terrific, I'll maybe follow up there on that one.

Obviously we need to maximise the development capacity available to us in Highland. We're agnostic about ownership and by that I mean we just want the housing. Who owns it and how it's owned, I think we're pretty relaxed about whether that's sitting in the private sector, RSLs or with ourselves as a registered landlord.

I suppose wherever I go in Highland, to whomever I'm speaking to, I'm conscious that the ask of us as a council is jobs and housing and I think these things probably go together, because one can be a barrier to the achievement of the other. It is, I think the Deputy First Minister has said chicken and egg earlier in relation to something else and it feels like that with this.

Whether I'm talking to my harbour team in Invergordon or the Chambers of Commerce event that Alistair Dodds and I were involved in in Skye, or if I'm talking to Green Freeport partners like Haventus, the ask is housing. Then obviously you heard the comments earlier from SDS colleagues around about the contribution that they can make to developing a workforce to source the workforce solutions for the partnership and I think that's part of this equation as well.

On the finance, we are obviously trying to leverage as much patient capital as possible, working closely with Scottish Government as well. Scotland has to be an investable proposition and I think this is one of these areas in which I think we can be a team and we can be a sort of force for joint enterprise and success. I'm obviously very keen to work closely with our colleagues in Highlands and Islands Enterprise, who've been very supportive at trying to help us develop mechanisms by which we can secure some of that investment.

Obviously we've described here the similar types of mix of tenures we're looking for, as Shetland has already sort of identified. I think you'd probably find that that was similar across all authorities. But I think, like Shetland, we are conscious that in our more rural areas we inevitably are looking to think about how we subsidise investment. I suppose in relation to all of these things that I've highlighted, I'm asking myself what is the local authority's role and I'll come onto that in relation to something else to do with the Green Freeport in a second.

We're working very closely with SSENT in terms of how they might leave us a lasting legacy from the renewable investment. That seems to us to be critical. Our challenge to them has been it needs to be a major legacy that comes from all the investment that you're putting in, £20.5 billion of investment into that. It's really important how that money is spent. Legacy housing would be one of the things we would be looking for to come from it. In conclusion, you see that's really what we're going to do in our housing summit conference which we're delighted that you're going to come to.

On the £2.8 million, there are some things that give us hope. There are non-domestic rates concessions built into the Green Freeport. We estimate that could make a significant contribution to that in terms of private sector finance. Like with many things we're involved in in Highland - and I think the visitor levy's another one - whatever the mechanism is, whether it's a levy or whether it's NDR concessions, really these things are a recipe for co-investment with the private sector and a sort of shot in the arm in terms of local construction and jobs in this case.

Our social value from renewables charter, which we would really hope Scottish Government would come in behind, could be a mechanism by which we could derive significant revenue. Then we can translate that into opportunities to invest in housing. We're also keen to work out how future UK and Scottish Government commitments to housing will play out in a local area. I think that's something that probably does need a bit of discussion.

Also just in terms of our ageing population, we are thinking very carefully about things like sheltered accommodation and the future of supported living. Because actually if we were to invest in that, that might actually free up a pathway and actually release housing stock.

I suppose the last thing I just want to focus on is on the net zero agenda. We have 15,000 social houses and our current bill, we reckon - and there are people like Craig Hatton here who are much more expert in this area than me. But we reckon to decarbonise our housing stock - and we're talking glazing and heat sources and installation - it will be well over £1 million easily and running as a total. We really need to think very carefully about across the fields of Scottish Government policy making about how these things are all lining up.

I just feel as though that's our case study. I think Councillor Lobban will probably want to contribute either now or as part of the questions, but that's why I think we were quite keen to feed into this, as in provide a case study to support Shetland Council and it's paper.

 

Paul McLennan

Derek, thank you very much. We'll come onto some of these issues in a second. Councillor Lobban, I don't know if you want to come in just now or contribute later on.

 

Bill Lobban

I can probably come in now, thank you. Oh to live in Shetland, not least in terms of housing debt. Highland Council has roughly £330 million of housing debt, that's £29 million per annum, or 42 pence in every pound of the HRA. Guess what we would spend the money on if the UK Government would give us it back? Housing would be a good bet really.

Servicing the council debt is leading to massive reductions in the amount of money we can either spend on new housing or in increasing the state of our existing housing, much of which is really elderly, it's deteriorating, it doesn't meet all the modern requirements. But if we had the extra money to spend, then we would spend it, it's quite simple.

Successive council leaders, including Raymond, have made real deep representations to the UK Government to have this debt written off. I think it's actually unacceptable that this is not being considered. If we could have some assistance with that from Scottish Government I'd be absolutely delighted.

There are things, I suppose, certainly freeing up the land supply would maybe help. We have let's say a restrictive number of landowners in Highland who tend to keep land until the time is right for development. The time is maybe not right for development as far as they're concerned, but it may be right for development as far as the local communities are concerned. I think that's basically all from me at the moment, Minister, thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

Thanks very much. Pippa, I don't know if you want to contribute from Argyll and Bute, just in terms of obviously your paper, if you don't mind.

 

Pippa Milne

Lovely, thank you, Minister. I suppose there are some similarities with others. Just to give the context for Argyll and Bute, we're a population of around 88,000 with 23 inhabited islands as well as our mainland areas, which we split into nine housing market areas. Unlike the others, we're a stock transfer authority so we no longer own any of our own housing stock. We work primarily with four registered social landlords and we have a strong partnership approach with them. Like others, we have a really positive strategic housing forum where all key partners, including Scottish Government, come together.

In terms of housing emergency, we were the first in Scotland to declare in June 2023. That was really the result of talking to our communities and businesses, who without fail were citing housing as the biggest challenge. Certainly our sense is that that was exacerbated post-COVID. Arguably seeing properties bought up by people who weren't economically active in the area and arguably there's a dearth of data to really tell us how many of those are working remotely outwith the area or just using those properties as second homes.

You'll see in the papers there just some of the stats that we have there. We would say that homelessness is the predominant driving force in terms of our emergency. We're at really the standard levels that we would expect as a baseline, but our ability to provide housing options for those people and the people that are currently on the housing waiting list is an issue. Often the ability of where we can place them, so if we can provide them with a property, it's often not where they work because of the size of the area. We see often in some of our communities people not even going on the housing list because of the sense that that really isn't going to deliver anything for them because of the lack of new build that is happening in some remote and rural communities.

For sure one of our biggest drivers in terms of issues is the number of short-term let and second homes and empty homes. You'll see there that that sits at around 11 per cent in our area and that is probably the biggest driver, as well as reduction in the household sizes and basically inefficient use of properties that we see in the area.

We have effectively a failed market, so west of Helensburgh there are just over 130 properties being built by developers in five years. The vast bulk relies on social housing that's developed and there is limited land availability in terms of some of the areas where we do see demand, that we're having to look at how we can free up that capacity.

We had a housing summit almost just over a year ago, in November 2023, to look at how we could tackle some of these issues, working with public sector partners and the private sector and third sector. I'll touch on just a range of the things that we're trying to look at in terms of adding to what we're already doing. That included creating our own strategic housing fund that uses the discretion we had to reduce the discount on empty homes that we could use to invest in properties, in addition to the Scottish Government grant that there is per property.

Certainly local businesses are saying more flexible local approaches to planning and consenting, as others have talked about. Skills is a real issue, apprenticeships, training programmes and increasing the number of people working in the industry. Looking at funding and risk sharing models. We've increased our capacity and resource for dealing with empty properties. We've got an award winning team in that area and a good track record, but we're trying to increase the quantity and the pace at which we're addressing those.

We've become a rural housing body, so we can add rural burdens to properties.

We've got two major supplementary planning guidance pieces of work in development, looking at Oban and Helensburgh, arguably what could be our fastest growing areas if we were able to free up more developable land. Looking at how we plan for infrastructure and the funding of that, looking to develop seasonal and temporary workforce accommodation, so increasingly see that as an issue for businesses to be able to get staff accommodation. Also just for people moving to the area and needing somewhere to stay while they look for a permanent property is an issue.

We've done some examples already of working with the health and social care partnership and funding them to bring properties back into use that can be available for that workforce. We're also developing projects that develop mid-market rent properties and worker housing and housing for older people, working alongside the HSCP and their older people's strategy. Just amongst some of the work that we're doing.

The example that we've shown there specifically is some of the work that we've done with community development trusts, who are increasingly showing an interest in trying to develop housing in their areas. The one that you'll see pictured there is a development on Colonsay, where there's been a longstanding demand for housing linked to expansion of fish farms in the area. This has been quite a challenging development, not least because of the location.

But seeing the Council put in £236,000 of grant funding, another £440,000 of loans, had support from HIE for business units, it's had £1.2 million for MOWI to secure three properties for their workers, as well as the Scottish Government funding. That I think takes the cost per unit for the 12 properties that that will deliver to over £350,000 per unit, which you can imagine for the average earnings on Colonsay it would be outwith anybody's reach for even a good wage.

You'll have seen in the stats there the average is seven times - the property value is seven times people's average salary. We're increasingly seeing this from community trusts and we're looking at how we can develop better ways of working with RSLs to support this, because these are quite complex projects to deliver and they're seeing cost escalations on builds and that's led to delays and challenges for them to deliver.

We've worked with partners to support them through that, but not every community trust has got the tenacity or the experience to go through that challenging process.

Some of the other things that we're certainly seeing coming through is about looking at the policy support and planning, particularly as well new electricity consenting.

We've had examples of some developments that were built and then couldn't get grid connections. Looking at that point on community benefit and community funding from renewables. Growth and support of construction skills.

Looking at flexibility around tenures, so we have got at least arrangements that support those different needs for key worker accommodation. Also looking for more flexibility around the RPA, some of those issues are as much a demand as the standard social housing. Actually having greater flexibility of how we could use that funding to meet that broader range of needs that we see in our area, as well as looking at ways we can do even more to tackle the ineffective stock that we see in the area. Thank you very much.

 

Paul McLennan

Pippa, thank you for that and thank you for all local authorities and the presentations. I think we've seen three case studies with similar issues which I'll touch on in a second, but with individual opportunities and individual concerns also. Coming back to the point I think the First Minister made as well, it's not a one size fits all and I think that's come through. So I think there's flexibility to discuss with each local authority around about what we can do specifically for yourselves, because I think that's really important.

But there are some key things I think coming through for myself in terms of that, from all the presentations. One was around about finance and investment and you mentioned, Pippa, about flexibility and RPAs. Obviously around about public and private collaboration I think is really important. Ten-year development came through in all the presentations. The skills issue again I think came through quite strongly and we heard that this morning when we had our visit. Policy clarity, around about net zero specifically I think is really important. Land availability and planning and consultations.

I think when you look at all of these though, one of the key things that underpins all this and I think the DFM and I have talked around about this, is economic development opportunities. If we get this right it really is a game changer in terms of that and a legacy we can also have in terms of that. We've got around 45-50 minutes and I think in the spirit that the DFM mentioned this morning, one of the key things is specific actions to try and come out of that. I'm going to try and open it up to the floor for thoughts, specific comments, specific actions that you think we should be looking at and I'll see…

 

Bill Lobban

It was really just on the point that Argyll and Bute made about short-term lets. Obviously in Highland we have a massive problem, a problem or I suppose a benefit from tourism and short-term lets. But I think the Scottish Government need a bit of credit for taking the bold decision to introduce both short-term let licensing and actually in my own area, a short-term let control area. Whilst it's a bit too early to totally understand the figures, I think anecdotal information is really beginning to work and really work quite quickly.

It's something you may want to consider in the future going forward, is that in specific places that a short-term let control area may be something you'd like to introduce. Certainly there's been a bit of pain, legal action, et cetera, which maybe we didn't envisage, but the legislation is there and it's there to be used. We're working our way through the problems, both in Highland and Edinburgh, so it's something worthwhile thinking about. Thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

Thanks for that. Heather?

 

Heather Woodbridge

Thank you, just a few points I wanted to throw in. Really interested and thank you very much for the presentation, I was really interested in some of the things you mentioned about curtailment. I also wanted to come back to a point that Pippa made about development trusts. In Orkney we have a huge challenge with many islands and the costs associated with building on an island, let alone the costs of building on an island beyond an island beyond an island are astronomical.

For us, one of the huge successes and an exemplar of a model that can work is through development trusts. One of the challenges we have with development trusts is the funding. We have community wind farms, community turbines can be in a small or a medium scale there, but we have challenges of curtailment in terms of connecting to the grid and that can impact on the development trust activity.

Curtailment is an issue, but there are also very small communities who do not have the opportunity to have that income, they do not have the opportunity to have their own wind farms at a scale, or wind turbines at a scale that would really generate that income. Actually having government grants and that funding available to the third sector is really important for us.

It's not something that we think the Council can deliver in these areas, it actually is the role of the Council to be the developer, is that appropriate in these really small communities? In fact you're allowed to have so much more flexibility when you use a vehicle such as a development trust, so I just want to speak in support of development trusts. I'm sitting on one myself, I'm just slightly biased there.

But I suppose something else I want to just mention at that point is underlining the importance of these community development officers who work for development trusts. They're run by volunteers but actually that key worker, that key officer makes the magic happen and the funding for them is critical. I think it's currently funded by HIE, but just wanted to say how important it is that funding continues for these structures.

The other thing I just wanted to say was just an incidental point about our challenges with housing in terms of the planning process. We have statutory consultants like SEPA, for example. Actually we have a huge challenge in Kirkwall, where we have flooding and we're getting objections from statutory consultees as a result of that, even though the risk is from 70 to 80 years ahead. We have some challenges there as well and I just wanted to mention that, so thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

Heather, thanks for that and I think that's a really important point about development trusts. We met the community housing trust and talked to them about the importance of that when I up visiting Shapinsay a number of months ago. It was fantastic to see the work that they'd carried out and I think that's incredibly important to look to do that.

Sometimes, you are right, it's maybe the role of the development trust itself rather than the council and who's the best placed to do that, so I think that's an important point to pick up. I don't know if anybody else wants to come in? Down at the bottom and then…

 

Euan McVicar

Thank you, Minister. I think Crown Estate Scotland are really keen to find a way to play a helpful role in tackling the housing issue across the region. It's absolutely critical to the success of the energy, the agriculture, the farming tenants that are the life blood of the estate and so important to the economy across the region.

We've got an opportunity to free up land from existing holdings that could support 1,500 new houses, which subject to securing the right kind of capital transfer from revenues, we think we could push forward with, which would be great. We're already beginning to engage with local development plans and master plans around that.

But we're also very open and a key point I want to make to colleagues round the table, we're very open to opportunities to acquire land or develop land up to the planning stage, that could be suitable for new housing. If anyone wants to talk to us about opportunities they've spotted, or see an opportunity for us to come in and help with that aspect of new housing proposals, we'd be very keen to do that.

A final point to note, a kind of watch this space point, we're trying to secure some slightly modernised powers that would help us do things in a slightly more flexible manner. At the moment we're very much restricted to being a landlord and owning land.

But if we can secure these new powers we're looking for, we see opportunities to be able to perhaps joint venture with the private sector to crowd in capital to the housing market, or to work in partnership with local housing associations. If we can do that, we think we can still have land-based investments in a slightly more flexible and modernised way that might open up opportunities. If we get that, we'll come back to Convention with more details on that in due course.

 

Paul McLennan

Euan, I think that's a very important point, because if we're talking about public and private collaboration, I think this is a prime example of what could be done. I think I'll be looking forward to hearing from that one. Bill, was it yourself that wanted to come in?

 

Bill Lobban

No, I'm not aspiring to look like I am either.

 

Raymond Bremner

I hope that you're not making the mistake - you've got your glasses on.

 

Paul McLennan

No, no.

 

Raymond Bremner

I think that this has been one of the more of the right gutsy topics that we can discuss and discuss at CoHI. Going back to our initial discussions this morning about who can do what and reflecting on it, how do we measure that benefit later on, I think that we've got loads of options here. I think that there are a lot of people talking about housing crises.

In Highland we've been talking about a housing challenge, because I think that we need to be clear to our communities that we have solutions that are on the table, that we're prepared to go forward for. Because they're looking at us to be able to provide solutions in terms of what will generally be a loss of population, a loss of service, an ageing population that we find it difficult to be able to provide service for.

The crux of it to me, no matter if we bring in all the industry and if we bring in all the investment, if we can't house the people to stay in our areas then we will lose all of what I've just said there just now. We understand that governments have challenges and therefore, coming up with solutions requires clever thinking. Those solutions, I think, need to be actively supported and that's why the conversations here around this table are really important with you as the Minister for Housing.

When we're outlining what the likes of what Council Lobban said there with debt burdens of every pound that we have in terms of HRA income comes in, well 42 pence of it goes on debt legacy. When the housing at Shetland came forward some time ago and found a solution to theirs, looking at that with other local authorities is one of those solutions I think that really needs looking at going forward.

Again if we have people coming to the table like Crown Estates, that's more than once or twice that you've mentioned about engaging with local authorities and we're going to have you sitting round the table and speaking to you about that as soon as we possibly can. But not just Crown Estate, but the likes of our social housing charter that we mentioned. Social housing charter, did I just say that? Yes, I did.

The Green Freeport and the opportunities that we've got there and as I mentioned HRA debt, but also HRA investment. We've had really good conversations with our communities in terms of the Highland investment plan and if they get engaged with that concept of paying a little more to be able to see a huge amount more investment and to save services and to increase service provision rather than see it cut, then we have the opportunity to discuss with our tenants what opportunities might lie in front of them, if they are prepared to see for an element of cost and investment and what they could see for that coming back to them.

As Bill said there just now about the STL control areas and licensing and Crown Estate, so there's loads of solutions actually here on the table. It's how we manage to empower ourselves to be able to deliver these and actually see the support of our communities and the decrease and the decline of our populations and population drift.

Actually finding out that the opportunities in Highlands and Islands are actually going to be so much more improved in the future, if we actually see ourselves fixing the housing challenge and the housing problem. I don't know if my new friend here, Sean, has run out of ink in his pen yet, but I hope that that finally gave you the last bit of ink running on your piece of paper there. You've got a lot of work ahead of you, Paul.

 

Paul McLennan

Raymond, thank you. I'm going to bring in Emma and then I'm going to bring in Stuart after that, if that's okay. Emma?

 

Emma Macdonald

Thank you very much. I just wanted to go back to the point that has been raised by quite a lot of the presentations around the impact on health and social care in our housing. I think that's a really significant area and probably one that we could have an almost separate topic on, because it's so vast. We have a really challenging rural model of care here that is really difficult to sustain.

We know that we need to change it, but we also know that it's not something that's easy to do overnight. I think when we're talking about housing, we have to really consider where that fits within it. With an ageing population we're facing more and more challenges within that area.

We really need to think about what that housing looks like and looking about how can we use technology differently to help support that. But then recognising that to use technology differently you have to have good connectivity to be able to do that, which I know links into a later item. But I just think the health and social care element in housing is really important for us, so we have to make sure we don't lose sight of that.

 

Paul McLennan

Emma, I think that's a really important point and I think there was a little piece of work had been carried out in terms of looking at health and social care budgets, looking at housing budgets. Sometimes the line kind of splits down the middle, there needs to be more flexibility.

For me that's maybe an action point we can take to do that, because it's been mentioned by a few local authorities in terms of that, about the issues about the ageing population and how that then fits into housing. Maybe that's an action point we can take forward on that particular point. I'm going to come to Stuart and then Frank and then Sandy. Stuart?

 

Stuart Black

Thanks, Minister. Last Tuesday I was at an event in Cairngorms in the national park, looking at housing. Everyone was agreed that housing was the number 1 challenge facing the park. In common with many other parts of the Highlands and Islands, there are plenty of jobs, there's just not enough people to fill those jobs.

There was mention of the minimum income study and we commissioned that work in 2014. It did have quite a considerable cost, I've just checked, it was over £130,000. I think if we were going to redo it, we'd be looking for some contributions from partners around the table to do that, but it's something we would certainly look at.

Mention's been made of community-led housing and currently through our network of local development officers, they're actually funded 60 per cent through Scottish Government budget, 40 per cent through us. So it is very important that we have that much funding.

We're working with over 30 communities across the Highlands and Islands on projects that'll deliver in excess of 200 homes and those projects include ones in Yell in Shetland, through to places like Mull, right down to Arran. I know there are representatives from Arran here who might want to talk about them. But these projects are fundamental because they're delivering housing in rural communities.

It's interesting in Shetland the big projects are in Lerwick, it's the smaller communities that need houses as well and these projects are often community-led, as has been mentioned, with excellent examples from Orkney.

One of the key things for us in the housing group that I'm chairing as part of the REP is bringing together projects to create scale that will then be attractive to the likes of SNIB, to Crown Estate Scotland, particularly around mid-market rent. I think that's something that could be done. Rather than individual projects of 10 or 20 houses, bundle them together and have 200 houses and get the funding for that, albeit those houses would be spread across.

Another thing which hasn't been touched on yet is offsite construction and modern methods of construction, which may help reduce housing delivery costs, particularly if you can do a lot in a factory and then you've got less time on site. Another issue to think about is the high cost of infrastructure provision, particularly things like electricity supply, where it's a monopoly supplier and there's really only one price ever given and it's often a very high price. So that's something I think needs to be addressed.

The last point I would make is that when we're out talking to employers across the Highlands and Islands, they're spending a lot of time looking at housing for their employees and that's something that really doesn't happen in urban Scotland. So it is something that needs to be tackled, because we've got lots of opportunities but we're also finding that many of our businesses are spending too much of their time not running their businesses, but trying to find housing for their staff.

Probably the best example, I'll just conclude with this one, was Raasay where we visited recently, where the distillery is employing over 40 people and has its own [Caravanish] is the name of the settlement, 12 caravans where its housing its staff on a site that's needed for distillery expansion. That's the extent of the challenge on a place like Raasay. Thanks.

 

Paul McLennan

Stuart, thank you for that, I'll bring Frank in in a wee second. I think the point - and it's been mentioned by a few local authorities - is about 10-year development and around about mid-market rent specifically. I think Scottish Government in its Programme for Government committed £100 million to grow that to £500 million, in terms of that we've seen how that's been successful.

But the packaging and how we kind of develop that, I think obviously the work that Crown Estate have mentioned are looking at it as well, I think it's as an area we need to develop and I think it's been touched on by all the local authorities. So I think it's a really apt point and maybe something we can obviously take forward as an action point as well in terms of that. I'm going to come to Frank and then I'll come to Sandy. Frank?

 

Frank Mitchell

Thank you, I thought I'd bring us up-to-date with some of the numbers of apprentices going into the construction sector. It's good news, it was the highest ever going on in the Highlands and Islands area, accounting for over 700 new starters just last year. Our biggest sector of employing MAs, modern apprenticeships, in the area. Vast class majority to small and medium enterprises, they dominate the employers in this area and I think that's been picked up by others, about the scale of some of the companies we're dealing with here.

Which is on the face of it good news, but then when I look at the £110 billion of investment coming down the tracks and these skills are transferable, these skills that these people are getting taught just now will easily be sucked up by that other £110 billion of investment. I think I'm worried that we think there's a pipeline of new people coming in for housing, but with other projects coming through very quickly and there'll be highly paid jobs and probably big employers, you can see a lot of people leaving the housing sector because of transferability of their skills.

That's something we're trying to keep an eye on, see what we can do. But ultimately we know just now demand's higher than that just now, we'd love to do more and that's something we're talking to the Government about just now. Because we've got the demand there, but my worry even at that incremental increase, when you look forward it's still not going to be enough in this area because of that challenge. Great opportunity, £110 billion, but we need the people there for it and the first part of that is getting the housing done.

 

Paul McLennan

Frank, just on that point - I'm going to bring in Sandy in a wee second - the DFM and I visited this morning, one of the issues that was talked about was workforce capacity and skills, but as much as people as well. I suppose it's a question out to the whole forum today, is that workforce capacity study being carried out? We're talking about the skills that are around, we're talking around about the shortage of people. But to what level do we know the workforce capacity just now?

I know when I spoke to Highland about the Green Freeport, one of the biggest issues they talked about was workforce capacity. I don't know in terms of right across the board in Scotland, we're talking about real economic development opportunities which brings housing, but it's a workforce capacity issue. I don't know how detailed we are into that level of work at the moment.

 

Frank Mitchell

The Highlands work done, there were previous presentations at this forum around some of that, those issues about actual population and the workforce population that was going on, what that meant for people of working age and what was happening there.

I think that's part of the challenge, because if you lose people early then they don't always come back until much later on. So really trying to capture people as early as we can, coming out of school with jobs in the area is seen as a key aspect of retaining as many working age people in the area as well has been a debate here in the past before. But these up-to-date stats that I've done regularly to show that, we can try to pull that out for you and get it sent over.

 

Paul McLennan

Thank you for that. I'm going to bring in Sandy and I don't know if there are any other hands that want to come up. I'm sure there'll be others who want to contribute. I'll bring in Sandy and then Alan after that. Sandy?

 

Sandy Bremner

Thank you, Minister. Just very briefly, two thoughts centred on the Government's determination to deliver real outcomes based on collaboration. First, we know there are some places in the Highlands and Islands where the market hasn't delivered and where the market will never deliver.

We've also seen some great examples from Highland Council, some in collaboration with Cairngorms National Park Authority, where we've delivered on the ground. That's involved the public sector buying and servicing land and engaging with the private sector. It's not a cheap option and I think we all know there's no such thing as that. But it can be really effective, especially if it's used in conjunction with government powers over land costs. I don't know if that's something we've discussed before, it's under very active consideration.

Secondly, I think we all recognise that even reforms developed and made with the best intentions can have unintended consequences. Rent controls are impacting on supply of land for new affordable housing, so there is an opportunity for government to introduce alternative caps for rent increases and by doing that, creating a long-term clarity of expectations for potential investors. I realise there are absolutely no silver bullets in this entire area, but I think these are areas where with action, strategic action, we can have a significant impact. Thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

Sandy, thank you for that. On rent control, it's obviously one of the key things we need to give as policy clarity, I think that was mentioned before around about net zero.

That's something that the Deputy First Minister and I need to take away.

In terms of the rent controls, obviously I think there's been an indicated in Programme for Government, that's something that the Government wants to continue with.

But we want to bring in investment, so there's a balance to be reached in terms of that. We set up the housing investment taskforce around about six or seven months ago, looking at various opportunities around about different ways to finance. We've got institutional investors as part of that, as well as SFT and SNIB, for example. If that develops hopefully they'll come out and give some clarity on the rent controls issue. I'm going to come to Alan and then to Gary. Alan?

 

Alan Hill

Thank you. Following up on Stuart's point in relation to Arran. Obviously we've been working closely with the community there and the development trust, who are well underway now with their own project to develop housing on the island, furthering communities. I think Heather's point that particularly in smaller and island communities, development trusts are probably the best way to take these kinds of projects forward.

But they have their issues, whether that's in relation to skills, in relation to tenure once the houses are actually constructed, the cost of delivering in islands and small communities. But there's a great opportunity there I think to pool and share the knowledge and the experience across the development trusts. Whether that's through the REP for Development Trusts Association Scotland or whoever it might be, that we're not constantly reinventing the wheel every time we start a new development.

I think certainly I know Arran development trust would be really keen to look at sharing their own experience going forward. There are other issues that they've had in terms of what funds they can apply for, what funds are restricted to local authorities, would be one that they would certainly raise if they were sitting here at the minute and what funding development trusts can apply for directly.

But also trying to think out the box, so even in the Arran the development trust, as I say, is well underway with their project, but there are already issues in terms of some of the smaller communities on the west coast of the island. Lochranza, for example, who are desperate to see housing in their own area on a smaller scale. I've got a proposal with me here for woodland crofting in Arran, so again it's looking at various options to fund different types and methods of moving forward.

 

Paul McLennan

That's an important point, because I think there was a Communities Housing Trust body fund, development trust, it's a really important part. I think Heather made that point as well, about how important they are. I've been involved in discussions about the development trusts and the work they're doing down there, so it's great work. I'm going to come to Gary.

 

Gary Robinson

Thanks very much, Minister. I think Stuart rightly highlighted the challenge that private sector organisations have in finding accommodation across the Highlands and Islands. But it's doubly challenging for public sector organisations here in Shetland.

Neil Grant frequently reminds community planning partners that we've actually got between 1.1 and 1.2 jobs per person of working age population in Shetland at the moment. The public sector is having to compete in a really competitive jobs market.

Secondly, the shortage of housing across all tenures means that we have real difficulty in accommodating an incoming workforce, whether that's a peripatetic workforce or permanent employees. It's not that infrequent that we have recruited only for the person to come back to us and say really want to come and work in Shetland, really want the job with NHS Shetland, but I'm going to have to turn it down because I just can't get accommodation.

That's the sort of catch 22 that we're in here in the Islands. It does strike me that if we can match housing with jobs, we could actually drive the economy to a greater extent, if I'm allowed to be political as a health board chair, of course. I did wonder about that, but then I remembered that John Ross Scott used to be quite political when he was chair of NHS Orkney, so I'll not hold back. Thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

 I'm seeing Fiona now looking at me and will maybe want to come in in a second. I think there's a couple of points for me and I was going to try and open this up a little bit. One was around about the finance and innovation and around about that, what can we do around about that. I don't know if there are any specific thoughts about that. As I mentioned before, we've got the housing investment taskforce which is looking at different ways, looking if there are any specific ideas on that particular point.

The second one, you touched on it, Gary, was around about what can we do to increase public and private collaboration. Because I think for me, the earlier we do that, because we can't have the economic development without the housing being developed at the same time, because we then get a distorted housing market at that particular point.

So I'd be keen to see (1) about the finance, have we any specific issues around about that? (2) The public and private collaboration, what can we do to maximise that? Specifically ideas to take that forward. I don't know if anybody else wants to come in. I'm not seeing any hands at this stage. Gary, do you want to come back in?

 

Gary Robinson

Yes, just to come back, NHS Shetland managed to acquire a guest house, the Scottish Government supported the health board to acquire a guest house. But the reality is we could use that property several times over and we really are in the market for I think innovative solutions as part of a hospital project which is currently on hold. We had actually included accommodation because there's no question that we are going to need workers coming into Shetland, either permanently or on a peripatetic basis for the foreseeable future.

That's the kind of challenge that we've got and I'm really keen to engage with any partners that can help us to overcome that challenge, to find finance and be able to deliver. I actually welcome the new initiative from CoHI to start driving forward some of these tough issues that I think we've spoken about around this table for a long time. Thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

Gary, thank you for that. Anybody else want to come in? Ealasaid.

 

Ealasaid MacDonald

I just wanted to highlight that the DFM commissioned a short life working group on Gaelic and the economies and one of their findings was that there's a disproportionate impact on the lack of affordable housing on Gaelic speaking communities. For those of us who live in these communities, we know what I'm talking about, but it's partly some of the problems we were talking about this morning, Raymond, where we've talked about teachers, nurses.

Emma talked earlier about health and social care. All of these key workers are struggling to find affordable - and I think that's a really important point and it's really interesting, the discussion about public and private and people coming together.

But the actual crux of this for a lot of communities is affordable housing and housing that's easy to allocate. Also there are initiatives that can be taken. For instance, if you live in a Gaelic community you would prefer, I'm sure, to have social care workers, that Emma was talking about, to have Gaelic. Can we prioritise them within the allocation of social housing?

Innovative ideas and questions like that need to be looked at in order to ensure that our communities remain communities. Because whilst we're talking about housing and some of the numbers are mindboggling actually that we're talking about here today, the requirements that each area will need, for example, we are talking about communities and the needs of communities and that has to be paramount in our thinking.

 

Paul McLennan

Ealasaid, I think that's a really important point. I was in South Uist last year and they were trying to recruit a Gaelic speaking teacher. The biggest issue to try to get somebody to come across was affordable housing. As you said, it's then about how the line was developed, so how the line would survive in the worst case scenario. So yes, it's a very valid point. Kathleen?

 

Kathleen Robertson

Thanks. I think in Moray we recognise a lot, probably identify most closely with the case studies from Shetland. I think we have very similar issues. Complicated too with we have an RAF base and the Army, they have a change in their policy at the moment on how they're expecting their personnel to house themselves.

They're now looking for rental accommodation and houses in the local area, as opposed to just being provided by the MOD. That's putting pressure, so we don't just have a mid-market rental issue with people coming into the area looking for accommodation, but it's having an absolute knock-on for entry level for our own citizens. I think that's an area that we also need to be considering.

But I think the other thing - and it probably builds on what Raymond was saying, along the lines of our councils at the moment, we're under real pressure. We're looking at closing things like libraries and leisure. That goes hand in glove with having housing, because if you want to attract people to new housing developments we have to have the resources to be able to keep people. It's not just about houses, we have to maintain the communities and allow people to want to stay so that they can enjoy living here and not just in a house.

I think early on at the beginning you were asking about key worker definitions. I think that'll vary from authority to authority. Certainly from a Moray perspective within the local authority, we couldn't even get a lease for our interim chief executive for quite some time, we had to find one. but teachers, nurses, dentists, doctors, I have to say veterinary surgeons of course, skilled workers and also infrastructure workers coming on. All the SSEN and offshore development we have, the infrastructure workers also need accommodation. It's just piecing it all together, some is temporary and some's going to be permanent. But it's a big picture of mid-market rent, but I would also say entry level for our own locals as well to keep them here.

 

Paul McLennan

I'm going to bring Fiona in a little second. Kathleen, I think that's a really important point, because obviously we had the Key Workers Fund that was brought ahead. There are discussions ongoing with local authorities at the moment.

One of the key things is obviously speaking to the strategic development of housing, so how does it fit into local housing strategies, for example. That's something I would always encourage local authorities to look at in terms of that, because I think it's incredibly important, as you said, the key worker strategy, how does it feed in.

If we're then talking around about the funding for it, I think that's incredibly important, so that's a really key fund which needs still to develop a little bit more. But in terms of that, I think it's where does it fit in within local housing strategies, which I think is an incredibly important part. As you said, the flexibility within that, what's a key worker for your local authority, as against Shetland, as against other local authorities. I'm keen to bring in Fiona.

 

Fiona Davies

Thank you, Minister. It's so heartening from an NHS perspective to hear all my colleagues from local authorities being extremely mindful and thoughtful about the needs of health and social care when it comes to their housing plans and housing strategies. So just a big thank you to all of you that have referenced health and social care. It's a complex picture and Emma, I would agree, I think it's probably worthy of another discussion that just has that focus. Because the angle that I think you were referencing is that vision we have for home-based care that has been part of strategy as long as I've been in health and social care and that's longer than you might think, because I'm older than I look.

But for those of us that are leading that strategic planning of health and social care, we need to be really aligned with this conversation that's happening, probably maybe away from some of our health and social care organisations. I was reflecting that on the discussion this morning within the regional economic plan, that pragmatism that's needed in the art of the possible I think isn't always matched by the vision that we have in health and social care.

That can sometimes be a little utopian in terms of the realistic rate at which we can transfer care, needing tech-enabled solutions or other adaptable types of homes. Particularly in our remote and rural areas, where maybe our housing stock is nowhere near that kind of vision. That aspect of how we deliver care differently and what that requires from housing is significant.

That's before we touch on key workers, which again other colleagues around the table have mentioned and again, Gary, you referenced it's a complex issue. Because the staff that deliver health and social care represent a really wide variety of skills and income brackets. Maybe back to that tenure point and the expectations people have as they arrive of what housing will be available will be very different, depending on the kind of role and family circumstance and experience that people are bringing with them. Sometimes our partners get a little frustrated with us, because they say you keep telling us there's a problem but you don't tell us what you want. Because defining that is very difficult, because it will be so variable across the different staff groups that we have within health and social care.

But I suppose for me the complex point really beyond all of that is the workforce point, because I wondered at what point in the meeting I needed to mention that we need all school-leavers to come into health and social care. Sorry about that, everybody, but there'll be nobody to build the houses because I need them all. That taking us back to the people and having the people to look after the people. Emma and Neil, your graph, Anita, your graph with the number of older people that there's going to be, looking in those long-term projections, that's not going anywhere.

I'm keen to work collectively and in partnership and I'm sure other NHS boards would want to say the same thing, because if we don't find a way of breaking through this cycle we can kind of look down the line and see 10, 25 years down the track that this is going to be a much, much more pressing conversation. I haven't given you a lot of actions and you've stressed you want action-focused, but my commitment to work much more closely in partnership through strategic planning is there and to try and align our vision for home-based care with this work that's going on across all authorities with their housing plans.

 

Paul McLennan

Fiona, I think they're two incredibly important points. One obviously is about the data for key workers and I think that's maybe something the Convention could possibly look at, what is the actual key workers requirement for the area. We all know that we have key workers requirements, but what actually is it? For specific key services such as yourself, I think that's really important.

Another one you talked around about and we've heard about the role of an ageing population, is looking at extra care housing, for example, in Scotland. I think the share of the market in Scotland's about one or two per cent. In other parts, New Zealand, for example, Canada, Australia, they're at about nine or 10 per cent. I was struck by one comment and we had a meeting talking about extra care housing and one of the figures that was talked about, in the UK they estimated it was 15 million empty bedrooms. If you take Scotland too you're talking about 1.5 million empty bedrooms that could be used if people had an alternative to move onto.

I think the role of extra care housing - and again that comes back to the point, Emma, I think that you made in terms of the health and social care partnership, where does that come in is really important. Because then if we have an alternative for people to move onto, you could be freeing up houses that people are sitting in because they've not got an option to kind of look at that. I'm conscious of the time, folks, we're coming to 20 past. Let's see if there are any other comments, if not I'm going to try and summarise. Does anybody else want to make a comment? Just down the bottom there.

 

Gary Campbell

Just to draw together housing and workforce and skills, there's another group we've not mentioned and that's students. At UHI we've had a lot of success in building student accommodation. We do need more, but there is a lot of pressure from students for that private rented sector as well.

But something else I should mention is just that at UHI we have 3,000 graduates coming out every year into the Highlands and Islands. We'd like every single one of them to stay and work and develop businesses in the Highlands and Islands, but that is an acute issue again, the lack of affordable accommodation, whether it's purchased or the rented sector to keep those graduates here. In any discussions we have about it, I'd just include both students and recent graduates as part of that discussion and part of the plans that we develop.

 

Paul McLennan

Just on that, there's a purpose-built student accommodation review going on just now, was aware of that development, so happy to pick up that specific point with you in terms of UHI, because I think it's incredibly important. It's not just in Edinburgh, Glasgow or whatever, so happy to pick up that specific point at another point, another time with you.

Folks, I'm conscious of time, I'm going to come back to the few action points I think we should be looking at. One was around about health and social care partnership and ageing population. I think that kind of comes to, Fiona, the point you made and Emma made as well. I think that's something we need to look at in terms of how we develop that in local housing strategies.

I think another message that came through quite loud and clear is the tenure development, how do we look at it in terms of that. I think Stuart mentioned about the work that's going on around about possible packaging, MMR which might look at other opportunities.

I think the other key one for me is talking about key workers data. We all talk about we've got an issue around about that, but I think there's maybe a little bit more work we need to do in terms of what is the actual specific issue that we're facing in terms of that. Does anybody else want to make any final comment? If not, I'm going to pass on to the DFM, just on the specific housing point that she wants to make a point. Then I'll hand across to her for the next issue. Heather?

 

Heather Woodbridge

Thank you, just final comments. I just wanted to add in a couple more actions, if that's okay, or a plea for some. Of course you've got your key asks, of course we want to fully support what SIC have put on the board, particularly underlining the refresh of the remote and rural minimum income study. I think that will be really critical for us as well.

I just want to come in again and say supporting the income streams for a community development trust, I think that's a really key area of work I think we shouldn't lose sight of at CoHI. Also the support to continue for the community development officers which support community development trusts, ensuring that funding is available both from HIE and Scottish Government, that that support remains in place. Then finally, just a comment on more flexibility from statutory consultees such as SEPA. That would be my comments, thank you.

 

Paul McLennan

Heather, thank you. Duncan?

 

Duncan Macinnes

Just following on, you said the Uists, they've been piloting an area for their wee population. What was clear was coming out was lack of housing and lack of childcare. There were 20 people wanting to move to Uist and those were the two main barriers that they were seeing. The jobs were there, but they couldn't get affordable housing, they couldn't get childcare. As we move forward in [Comhairle] we're looking at 2,000 jobs that are coming very, very shortly, starting with SSEN Transmission. They're certainly part of the major projects working group on housing that's looking at going forward.

They're looking at getting involved very much in a mix of housing, good quality housing, mid-rent housing and renovating existing housing that needs to be upgraded. Because some of those already have the services there and what they are looking at as well is probably cheaper modular housing and they're leaving the services behind that RSL can pick up at a later date, because the services have been provided there and taken there. Because one of the biggest costs involved is getting the services to some of those sites. Certainly with 2,000 people we know are coming that need housing, SSEN Transmission are wanting to play their part as being the first mover that's coming into the area, playing their legacy role.

 

Paul McLennan

Duncan, I visited, it must have been about six or seven months ago and that point was made about SSEN. But also the point you mentioned previously, visiting South Uist and the childcare issue was brought up and transport obviously, because obviously we're talking about the connectivity around about that. Just to say thank you very much.

I think one of the key things to come back to for me was talking about it's not a one size fits all, we're taking some action points. Heather, I'm keen to pick up the point you mentioned and again with other local authorities in terms of that, what the specific points are in terms of that and the specifics we can take away. Just to thank you for your contribution.

DFM, I don't know if you have anything you want to add in terms of - for me the key thing - and the DFM and I have chatted about this - is the role of economic development combined with housing is absolutely integral that we get both and develop it at the same time. But thank you for contributions and DFM, I'll hand back to yourself.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much. I think that was a really useful conversation and there are some very clear asks up there, so when we come to winding up the whole day we've had today in terms of actions for the next time, I think that's useful. Also including the point around planning and the consultees and survey data in terms of what health and social care need, what education UHI needs and so on. Probably for me the most pertinent comment was in the Shetland case study, where your previous experience was building fast doesn't mean building for long.

In other words, there's a tendency at the moment, I certainly have a temptation to think there must be some shortcuts, some faster ways of building more quickly. There is a very pertinent point in terms of building to last generations. Anyway, I think there's a lot there and before the next CoHI, I guess there's a question too in terms of HIE's overall work across different communities, what stage that'll be at and whether Stuart and Alistair, there's anything you need from any of the assembled to contribute to that to progress that faster, or in any way to get things done more quickly, but you can come back to us after. Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much, Paul, for that.

 

Kate Forbes

We'll move on to our second-last agenda item, but the last agenda item is summing up, so that means that we are on the home straight. We all know that digital connectivity is critical to our future and with it, we can see Robbie McGhee in massive form up on the screen. Robbie is the Deputy Director for Digital Connectivity at the Scottish Government, so he's joining us remotely and he'll update us on the progress that has been made in delivering connectivity to our rural and island communities.

I do feel like the digital conversation has shifted quite considerably compared to the conversations we might have had in the last five years. We have committed over £600 million to extend the reach of broadband networks across Scotland and targeted that investment in some of our hardest to reach communities. We've also been seeking to improve mobile coverage as well with the 4G Infill Programme last year, which delivered 55 new masts. Like many of you, I'm sure, travelling around the areas that you represent, you have first person experience of where it's much better and where it perhaps is almost better but maybe a wee way to go.

I know that the Convention wrote to the UK Government requesting attendance at future CoHI to seek clarity on what their approach is for very hard to reach premises would be. That'll be taken forward at our meeting in spring next year. Just as an aside, I've had some really useful conversations with the UK Government over the last few weeks in particular after the election about how we can ensure that we together, the full weight of our investment is maximised as much as possible, rather than the risk of duplication, overlap and actually missing out on people. To be fair to them, they have been a lot more open to those conversations than perhaps was experienced before, just because I think people were moving at pace. My hope is that we do get a good response.

I'm going to hand over to Robbie and he will update us on the progress that we have been making. Robbie, hopefully you've got it in your notes as well to maybe talk about where there's opportunity to partner with industry and to partner with the UK Government as well to push things as far as possible. Over to you.

 

Robbie McGhee

Hopefully you can hear me okay, because I don't have audio at the moment. Afternoon, everyone, it's great to join you this afternoon. We'd far rather have been there with you in person. Not least as there's always a very specific feel that comes with dialling in remotely to talk about digital connectivity that my broadband connection will suddenly give up the ghost halfway through, but hopefully we can avoid that. Certainly I hope that the prospect of me looming large on a screen in the room isn't too off-putting.

This item is intended to tee up a more extensive deep dive on digital connectivity at the next Convention and I guess to get a sense from all of you around what you'd like to see covered within that, what the burning issues are that you want to discuss and what organisations you'd like to hear from. For today what we've done, we've circulated a paper that sets out some of the headlines around digital connectivity across the Highlands and Islands.

Obviously over the past decades there have been significant levels of public investment to drive out new infrastructure, obviously working alongside commercial investment. All that has contributed to the really positive trends that I think you can see across the various broadband and mobile coverage metrics included in the paper. I think, in short, we're in a very different place to where we were a decade ago. I think whether it's through fibre, mobile, wireless, even the new LEO satellite networks that have deployed over the last couple of years, everyone in Scotland no matter where they are can now access high speed, high bandwidth digital connectivity.

We are in a positive place but there's clearly more to do, there are still barriers, there are still coverage gaps, there are still barriers around affordability or in skills and around access. I think all of the organisations represented at the Convention have got a part to play in the response to those challenges. I think if I were to summarise in a sentence, it's lots done but more to do and obviously there's a huge amount of investment still to come across the Highlands and Islands.

I think although LEO satellites have been a very welcome addition to the connectivity cannon, the truth is that fibre remains the most versatile, the most futureproofed technology and we want to extend it as far as we can to our most rural communities. Through the R100 Programme we've already delivered 16 new subsea cables that have fibred up our islands and we've connected well over 60,000 of our hardest to reach premises to gigabit networks through the programme so far. The R100 contract that covers the Highlands and Islands, that runs to 2028 and that's extending the Openreach fibre network. That'll be active in all parts of the Highlands and Islands between now and then.

As the Deputy First Minister also alluded to, we're also kickstarting a pipeline of new activity through Project Gigabit, which is a partnership with the UK Government. Must of that activity is aimed at smaller suppliers and we've been working with them in recent months to scope new procurements. We've launched the first couple of those in Scotland, with more to come including one covering Orkney and Shetland. We've also got the possibility of Openreach going even further with Project Gigabit funding, marrying that up with plans R100 build to deliver more whole area solutions.

Obviously all of that will require coordination on street works, on planning, on logistics and that'll continue through the network that we've got in place with local authorities. All that will continue to be hugely important in the years ahead. The project's kind of coming together, the picture's becoming a bit clearer, but I think there are still some questions around the approach and the level of funding for the hardest to reach premises. I think that's one for our follow-up discussion about at the spring Convention as well with UK Government.

On mobile, as the Deputy First Minister mentioned, we've now successfully closed out the Scottish 4G Infill Programme. That was a Scottish Government investment programme which delivered 55 new mobile masts across Scotland, 37 of which were in the Highlands and Islands. The focus, I guess, has increasingly turned towards the UK Government's Shared Rural Network Programme, something that I think could be really transformational, but is clearly attracting a lot of negative interest at the moment around the choice of some of the proposed site locations.

As we've outlined in the paper, we're working with UK Government colleagues and SRN Programme team to broker a solution to review site locations and ensure that where a site is proposed there's a really solid rationale for it. It's either serving a community, a railway or transport route, rather than just trying to hit a geographic coverage target. We've also been feeding lessons learned from the S4GI Programme into that process too. Really, really important that it's resolved, because SRN should play an important role in addressing many years of underinvestment in Scotland's mobile networks, particularly in the more rural areas. But it clearly needs to take account of our built environment, it needs to be focused and targeted in the right places.

Hopefully the paper has helped set the context. Happy to answer any questions from the floor. It would also be great to hear views on where you would like to focus and who you'd like to hear from when we have our deeper dive next time out. But at this point I'll hand back to the Deputy First Minister and hopefully I will get to hear you as well, which I couldn't do before I immediately started the presentation, so over to you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much, Robbie. I don't know if you can hear us just now and that's an even worse picture because you can see me. There we go, but hopefully you can hear us and if you can't, I'm sure there's plenty of note taking. Okay, Robbie, can you hear us? Yes, great, wonderful, perfect.

 

Robbie McGhee

I can, audio use is back.

 

Kate Forbes

Good, right, okay, so the main aim of this conversation is twofold. (1) Any comments or questions that you'd like to put to Robbie in terms of the overall picture or the paper. But you'll know it's a planned substantive item for our next Convention, which will be in the spring. To continue to sound like a broken record, if we want to be action-oriented what do we want to include in that paper and that discussion that is really about the action?

I'll hand over to you for any comments or for any questions, noting that this covers quite a breadth. I'm struck in the paper that almost the areas amongst us that have the highest share or highest coverage of digital, sorry of superfast connectivity, for fixed superfast connectivity, are almost the inverse of those with the highest coverage of 4G and the opposite. Orkney, Shetland, highest coverage I think there for 4G, but perhaps lower coverage in terms of fixed superfast. Robbie can tell me if I'm reading that wrong, but I'll go to questions. Kathleen?

 

Kathleen Robertson

If you don't mind, I'll defer to Councillor Lobban first because he's had his hand up longer than mine.

 

Kate Forbes

Sorry, go for it, Bill. Age before beauty or something like that, is that right?

 

Bill Lobban

Can I just encourage us to stop looking at landmass and start concentrating on communities? Sticking up a mobile mast in the middle of nowhere, where it only benefits someone who can't read a map, is maybe not what our local communities want to see. What they want to see is their countryside unspoiled unless it's absolutely necessary. They want to see you sticking up a mast if it's next door to their community and it improves connectivity in their area, but not if it's in the middle of nowhere. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks. Kathleen?

 

Kathleen Robertson

Thank you. Firstly, before I came here, just to say, my road was closed on Saturday and it was because they were doing some R100 rollouts, so thank you for that.

The second bit is if we're looking for the next meeting, the bit that would really interest me, one of the issues we have in Moray is actually connectivity in our school estate, because we have really good old Victorian thick-walled buildings and the SWAN network is just not efficient enough. It can take some of our teachers half an hour to load before they start teaching, so if there's an opportunity to look at that as part of the digital stuff in spring, I think that would be most welcome.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks. Frank and then I think it was Sandy.

 

Frank Mitchell

It's really just to highlight I don't know how much this opportunity's been examined, but with the all the energy projects that are coming in over the next 10 years, they will all be using fast comms in them. They can't run without the communication network, so I know that maybe if we ask them to lay some additional fibre, because that's a lot of the cost to do the civil works, they can put that in if they're doing it anyway if it's suits them, how much that will help in the situation.

But also if they were consented in a way that allowed them to also use their additional fibre, not for energy but for other commercial uses, that would be another option that could be there that could really take a lot of the duplication of effort out of this. Because the energy companies are going to be doing that anyway for their own assets, so just to make sure that's being examined and looked at in a way that leverages as much as we can to help the situation.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks for that. Sandy and then Audrey.

 

Sandy Bremner

Yes, just very briefly, to underline Bill's point about shared rural network and masts. One of the recurring themes throughout the day has been best use of public money. To underline the fact that vast amounts of public money are being wasted through a series of applications for masts in Scotland's most sensitive areas, with little or no value to the people who visit and who live and work on the land. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. Audrey and then Gary.

 

Audrey Forrest

Thank you. An issue that seems to have come up recently is the impact of digital access on access to smart meters. There certainly have been a lot of people who have had issues, the smart meters aren't working as they had expected. People are getting bills because their smart meter hasn't told them how much they've used and it's all been down to digital connectivity. Just something to think of on that.

The other thing that does come up and I'm sure Fiona will be aware, is not directly to do with this but it is a connectivity issue, that's the use of alarms in people's homes when they switch off analogue and copper stuff. That's a really big issue and the more rural you are, the more that becomes an issue because the connectivity's really not good and the demographic we're looking at maybe don't have smartphones to get their 4G.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. Gary?

 

Gary Robinson

Thanks, I would echo those comments about the smart meters from a personal experience. But I was wanting to speak about digital health and telecare and public services more in general, because I think all of us are trying in some way or another to engage with people digitally more and more. The challenge is that we're finding that there isn't that universal coverage at the moment, so we're having to look at various different solutions to address the complexity of the current situation.

I do think there is something to discuss around how quickly we can get to that 100, the promise of R100 and how we can maximise the benefit of that to deliver more universal services than we've currently got. I think we can all see the advantage of that and particularly as we move away from things like care centres and care homes to care at home, then I think that's going to be increasingly important. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Alistair.

 

Alistair Dodds

Just I spoke with Robbie before, could you just ensure, just to pick up your point about the working together with the UK Government so that we're getting the maximum from any investment. I think it would be really good to see how Robbie, if he is presenting a paper, is just to focus on that.

I think the other thing is not just to focus on the bigger conurbations, we seem to invest and reinvest in them. I think the point made by Audrey is really important. We really need to start getting to the far out places, the more remote places, the few houses, gatherings, rather than just sticking it in towns.

I think again it would be really good to see how working with the UK Government we can get to that final percentage, because that's really important for us. I was over in Eigg recently, you see people there, there's a woman working there, an archaeologist who wrote studies in Nottinghamshire. I thought that was just fantastic, it's keeping people in the Highlands and Islands but doing work all over the UK, that's really important for us.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. Emma.

 

Emma Macdonald

Thank you. We're doing a lot of work on this at the moment and working with the UK Government. I would hope that by the time we get to spring CoHI in 2025, we will have a bit more of an update of where we're at.

I think it's really important when we look at some of our businesses, particularly if you look at the salmon industry at the minute, they're citing technology and the lack of connectivity as a real barrier in some of their transformation that they're trying to do. I think we really need to look at this in a joined up way and look at how it can help lots of different industries, as well as also local government. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Thank you. Raymond?

 

Raymond Bremner

I think that without repeating a lot of the points that have already been made, the fact is I think in this modern digital age, if we can call it a digital age that we're in, one of the things that we - one of the opportunities that lie before us all at CoHI is understanding that the faster that we can deliver digital connectivity within the Highlands, the bigger the support is to encouraging people, again helping to stop the decline of population, where people can work at home, where they can actually work at home, in a very rural environment and an environment where it is digitally challenged.

For me, the paper has where we are right now, but I think the question that we have to ask ourselves is - and going back to what we were saying about this morning - what can we do to actually try and speed up the delivery of digital connectivity? If you look at the two tables that we've got there, one per cent per year for the past four years, if I could just extrapolate that, by the time that we get to 99 per cent of matching Shetland and Orkney, it'll be 2048 and I'll be in a box.

It's understanding that kind of what can we do, how can we challenge ourselves to be able to actually increase, because digital technology advances every so many years, it's very, very quick. So by the time that we're actually managing to get ourselves fully up to speed in our communities in the Highlands and Islands, actually digital communication has actually moved on and we find that we're back to the beginning, trying to roll out the next generation of digital connectivity. For me, it's how do we influence and even if there are financial challenges in there, how do we influence that going forward? Is that a challenge that we want to set ourselves corporately at CoHI? Thanks.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much. Before I hand back to Robbie to respond to some of the points, can I play back to you what I think I've just heard in terms of the substance of the next session on digital rollout?

Obviously we can have an update on progress and so on, but over and above that we could have something very specific on the way in which different programmes sit alongside each other. You've got various UK Government funding streams going into programmes, various Scottish Government schemes going into programmes and where we've reached in terms of maximising the coverage. Because my hope is that any funding acts as a sort of shot in the arm, rather than starts building something separately.

Then secondly, I wonder if we need something about use. Use within education, is what we have adequate? Use within housing and decarbonisation, that's the smart meters point, is it adequate? Use within health and social care, is it adequate? Use within business and industry, from salmon through to energy, is it adequate? The point of that conversation will be that all of us own an element of that, so NHS clearly, local government clearly. Then there's something jointly for us, well enterprise agencies and industry and business. I suppose the question will be is it adequate? Then we reflect it back to ourselves, well what are we going to do about it? What do we need to do about our education estate and so on?

Then the fourth suggestion, and this might be a little bit more out there, but if you recall during COVID the technology industry got together what they called the Tech Army. It was about helping the public sector in particular digitise their services really quickly, they offered it to help. They've been talking to me again about perhaps some of their frustrations at having a lot of skills, a lot of ability and really wanting to play their part in trying to mitigate again some of the funding challenges within the public sector and really want to be part of a solution.

This is just another - it's a bit leftfield, as you can see I've not told any officials about it or warmed anybody up to it, but I just wonder whether there's something there around the tech industry itself and whether we are working with them as closely as we could. Do our procurement services alienate them or bring them in? Do we have close links in terms of some of the challenges we face? Anyway, I'll put that out there and I'll go back to Robbie. Once Robbie's spoken, if you disagree with any of those points, that's your chance to say so. Robbie?

 

Robbie McGhee

Excellent, that was a really helpful summary. I think just to respond to some of the points that were raised as we went round the room there, I think on - and as I said, I think we can see that some of the proposals that have come forward lack that rationale that we've talked about. They maybe don't point towards a community or a road or have a clear purpose.

I think we absolutely, as the paper outlines, we are keen to address that and are working with UK Government and the NSS, who are the company that are running the programme to get that addressed. I think that is something that we are very, very keen to see addressed so that the programme can have the impact that we want that's a meaningful impact and is not just about landmass, as has been talked about.

I think the other point was raised about connectivity in schools and SWAN not being efficient enough.

What I would say is that SWAN should be flexible enough in terms of BT, obviously they run that. They've got lots of in-building solutions, so if the connectivity that's going into a school is not being shared in a way that is effective across that estate, that BT will absolutely have a solution for that. Again that's something that I would encourage the specific local authority and the specific school to get engaged with NSS and get engaged with BT to sort that.

I think it was raised as well about opportunities around energy projects and incorporating connectivity into those. I think it's a great point. We're definitely looking at opportunities for infrastructure sharing, particularly with energy. I think suppliers are always looking for opportunities to try and reduce their costs. There are some regulatory hurdles to be overcome, but we've been brokering some discussions around that.

I think we're also looking at other options, for example, Papa Westray was one where we actually funded a trial which saw fibre network installed through a private water network. Again looking at that has been a way in which we could potentially get fibre deployed for telecoms purposes in a more cost effective way.

On PSTN that was mentioned and the impact on smart meters, again I think we are very focused on the fact that PSTN is looming into view, 2027 is not too far away. There's obviously been an awful lot of work that's been done to make sure that BT, who are leading the switchover, are addressing the risks they're aware of, particularly risks to vulnerable groups. There's obviously been a major comms campaign that they've been fronting various events around Scotland to raise awareness.

But I think really interestingly the risk that was always at the forefront of our minds which obviously impacts smart meters but a whole load of other things, is around power outages. What happens if power's down for a lengthy period? Really positively BT have been developing a number of new products to address that, longer battery backups, any products that can supply power to phones in the event of a power cut. That is really, really encouraging as well.

As I say, I think the other point that's already been touched upon, I think there is a way that the various programmes and interventions that I've talked about today could be piecemeal. But what we are working with UK Government to do is to coordinate those, because I think when they're used together and they're planned effectively together, they can have real impact and we can drive efficiencies from them.

We've made some real progress even over the past few months since the election. I think Project Gigabit that I talked about earlier on is looking more and more as if it'll be a really effective joint endeavour. I think that is definitely one that we can talk more about at the spring Convention. I think that's probably the main things or the main points that were raised that I jotted down. Hopefully that was helpful as an initial response.

 

Kate Forbes

Thanks very much, definitely adding in the idea of a case study too of things. Any detractors from - yes, Frank?

 

Frank Mitchell

I think you maybe got the point, the point wasn't necessarily the need for the energy projects to be aligned, they're going to do this anyway. Can we accelerate the progress on the back of what's going to happen in energy? I think that was a point you'd picked up or even take costs out of the programme substantially, because they're doing this anyway and we could piggyback on the back of it in some shape or form.

 

Kate Forbes

Yes, particularly when the cables go right past people's houses to get to the business and nobody else gets the benefit of it. Okay, I think we've got the form of something there. John?

 

John Mundell

If you don't mind, you've touched on a subject when you were talking about the digital army. Obviously we did all respond, public sector responded really well as did our suppliers through the pandemic. But I have a bee in my bonnet, I have to say, and I've worked in a few paces, I'm really concerned that we are missing a trick in the public sector to a significant degree. We are all developing in-house or using in-house different systems for the same purpose.

When I went to Moray - and I'm not criticising my current employer in any shape or form - my own team were actually developing something for a simple thing like disabled badges, blue badges. Then through having dialogue with other people and finding out other people have been doing the same, the Improvement Service is doing that from a national perspective. We are not joined up at all in the way that we should be across local government or indeed across the public sector. We're all developing - the amount of money that we're pouring into a black hole in that respect is eyewatering.

I think something has to happen dramatic to change that. You've just touched on a subject when you spoke about the digital army that's trying to get to the point that we do something different, because we're just going on and on and on, year after year, doing the same thing and it frustrates the hell out of me, pardon the expression. Thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

That is the song of my heart, but I think if we were to progress down that route - and I'm open to doing it - then that would require everybody to be up for it and to put the cat amongst the pigeons, obviously the most consistent online platform that everybody uses is some form of revenue raising platform and there are quite a lot of different ones right across the country. There is a $1 million question out there as to whether there's a willingness to in any way share a platform. But I feel like this is going down a route where I'm with you, but I'm not sure everybody is.

 

John Mundell

Just coming back on that, there are some things that I've been involved in over many years actually, that quite often it's the officials that are the blocks, sometimes it's the politicians. But something different has to happen from on high, I think, to make sure that we do. Otherwise it's just not going to happen. Thanks.

 

Kate Forbes

Well I don't disagree with you, I just have had this conversation too many times with lots of different parties, partners and parties. But you know I'm open, I'm very open if we want to incorporate that into looking at systems more generally. Maybe we use the next session as a springboard for that, because there's huge, huge opportunity. Revenue Scotland, for example, has in recent years developed an entirely new system for various forms of revenue raising. There's always the open offer to partner with any other part of the public sector to share that, so it is an option right now. Thank you very much for that, John.

Okay, any other comments? Okay, so we've got a forum and the UK Government will be joining us as well for that session, so we'll make sure that there's stuff that's very relevant. Great, well thank you, Robbie, for that and thanks for joining us. That brings us perfectly on time to conclusion on the last comments. There are a number of actions, just to summarise.

As agreed at the last CoHI, outcomes and actions will be circulated for comment by the secretariat team. Our next Convention will be in the spring, kindly hosted by the Highland Council and the secretariat will be in touch to confirm a date. We do have the substantive agenda item that we've just discussed in terms of digital infrastructure. I'll shortly ask if there's anything else that people are keen to include in that. I think based on the conversations today, there are a number of actions that I have in my head which I could perhaps share.

There was a commitment from me to take offline with those that employ Gaelic teachers, a conversation specifically about education. HITRANS talked about their transport to health paper, I wonder whether that's worth including at the next session, perhaps with some commentary from our NHS colleagues on how they support that as well. Then we talked about the economy and there are two actions that I wonder if we could progress more substantively.

The first is that the Regional Economic Partnership should continue to do the good work that they do, but I wonder just separately to that, to support their work, whether we could do a piece of work perhaps - and again I've not given Stuart any warning about this - perhaps under the guidance of Stuart on this business of a pipeline of investment opportunities for inward investors, where we could have a conversation across different local authority teams around what the opportunities are right now. With a view to then being able to speak with one voice on a much bigger scale with potential investors who are currently looking for opportunities in and around the various different sectors we have in the Highlands. I'll put that out and you can come back to me if you think that's a goer.

Then the second is around again sharing our experiences across the Highlands and Islands on the consistency and the clarity in engaging with investors so that again in speaking with one voice we might be able to attract more significant players to the table. I'm very conscious, as Euan nods over there, that with GB Energy now located in Aberdeen, there are a lot of would-be investors looking north to Scotland. We want to make sure that as they look north, we are working with them very quickly to say here are the opportunities in the Highlands and this is what you can expect when you come and engage with any part of the public sector in the Highlands.

The two sides of it would be considering whether there is a pipeline of funds or what else is required in terms of building up big enough portfolios. Then secondly, sort of best practice in terms of consistency and clarity and engaging with investors. I'll put that out there, having again not warmed anyone up to that. Then there's a number of actions on - so we could bring that back, just to finish that point off, bring back a piece of work on investment and the economy.

Then there are some actions on housing as well and I think again it's probably to come back with an update on the actions that you've put up there, the actions in terms of specific asks for the Scottish Government and for others. I think there was an ask around some data around key workers and university needs for housing as well. Then there was an ask that I was very struck by on planning and around when local authorities are progressing brilliant ideas, what about the engagement with other parts of the public sector, not all of whom are represented here, the statutory consultees.

Then the last one was just on the digital there. Now I'm sure I've missed things, so if anybody wants to throw in and what I've missed and distinguish between things for the next agenda and things that are just actions to take away, does anybody want to come in? Frank, skills?

 

Frank Mitchell

I guess I'm really working on the co-investment opportunities for a skills and workforce plan. We'll cover obviously the housing area that you've mentioned and the gaps there, probably bringing it all together in one. I work with HIE and under the REP to make sure we're doing that collectively with the local authorities. To bring something maybe before the next one, we'll have it ready to circulate. But if not, at least for the next meeting.

 

Kate Forbes

Great, thank you, I should have mentioned that. Paul?

 

Paul McLennan

Just a couple of things. One was on the 10-year development, which I'll probably pick up with Stuart, in terms of looking at MMR opportunities and the packaging. I think the point you made, Emma, as well around about health and social care partnership and the work in the Highlands that we need to do around about that I think is really important. That feeds into the key workers issue, Fiona, I think that you mentioned, but it's much broader than that. So I think that's another action to look at.

 

Kate Forbes

Raymond?

 

Raymond Bremner

My point's to Paul in terms of the representation that you've had from certain local authorities here today. Given the fact that it was in focus today and maybe to have those discussions with some of the local authorities in terms of some of the initiatives that they're bringing to the table, or could be facilitated and that has been facilitated through CoHI today, but can be taken forward with you and your office going forward.

 

Paul McLennan

Yes, I think keeping to that, I’ve already met each local authority but I’m happy to meet each, I think I mentioned that in terms of the specifics, happy to do that. I think obviously we'll visit yourselves in a couple of weeks.

 

Raymond Bremner

Yes, no bother, perfect.

 

Heather Woodbridge

Thank you. Just going back to maybe some of your opening remarks, Deputy First Minister, around the focus on action, us having the one voice, united voice and that link between policy into action. I think one of the things that would really help us as leaders is the timeous circulation of the outcomes and actions following CoHI. I think that would really help us going forward, so just wanted to add that in there, thank you.

 

Kate Forbes

Great. Can I suggest on that that we do circulate it in a timeous fashion, but equally there was an earlier conversation about the best format so that it is action-oriented, in terms of banning the exploring, considering kind of language. Unless people have genius ideas right now, perhaps we'll trial something and if you don't like it that's fine, just reply saying you don't like it and we'll see how we get on. Is that okay? Yes? Kathleen.

 

Kathleen Robertson

Just to say that this is my first term in Council. I've been to a few of the CoHIs and the very first CoHI I came to was in Oban. We rushed to do the outcomes in the last 10-15 minutes of the meeting and then that was it until the next one, so I really welcome the fact that we are getting the chance to look at them afterwards. I've particularly liked the format today, where at the end of each session we've actually decided on the actions at the end and then you've summed them up beautifully at the end. I think we all are quite confident about where we sit with them.

My only further ask would be - and I don't mean to be critical because I know everybody's busy, but this particular CoHI meeting, the papers were very late. We're all busy, every one of us and in order for us to get briefings from our respective officers it would be appreciated if we could just bear that in mind when the papers are being published.

 

Kate Forbes

Very fair, very fair, thank you. That's fine, we will take that away. I do really want it to be as action-oriented as - so any feedback in between meetings, or if anybody wants a conversation about ideas of how to do this, I am very conscious that you are all extremely busy people and we've travelled some distance, some of us. So we need to make sure it's as useful as possible for you and that has to be around what we're going to do as a result of having been here. Any epiphanies, brainwaves, genius as you leave, sitting on the 14-hour ferry, come back to me. Kathleen, you didn't need a 14-hour ferry, go for it.

 

Kathleen Robertson

Just one final thing, we only do CoHI twice a year. I just wonder if there's some merit in having some kind of update midway, because it's a long time, six months. You're waiting six months to kind of progress, we're talking about trying to do things at pace and progressing, whether there's an opportunity to maybe at least touch base before that six months with progress.

 

Kate Forbes

Can I ask Judith just to comment on some of that?

 

Judith Young

Yes, that would be helpful. Just obviously you'll be aware, Councillor, that we do have the senior officers group which meets three times in between each Convention and that's the main route back. Certainly we could talk with the senior officer group about whether we wish to communicate back to council leaders through that process.

I think we've been doing some work, as you know, and I've spoken to all leaders and chief execs over the course of the summer, in terms of how we actually maximise the effectiveness of the Conventions and ensure that we're delivering something that's fit for purpose and that merits the time and investment that we're all putting into it.

I know that on this occasion some of the papers were delayed by the need to go through various council clearance processes and that was particularly the case with the REP paper, which is why that was delayed. Sometimes these things sit outwith all of our control, but I think the more we can plan ahead in terms of the sequencing of the agenda, the papers that we're going to take at the next CoHI and the one after that and so on, the better we can align those things.

Absolutely, you all know where I am, I've spoken to each of you I think individually now. We're going to be putting our review paper to DFM following this meeting, just talking about how we can make continuous improvement to the process. Particularly around the delivery of outcomes and actually making sure that they are timely and focused and that we have a constant checkback to ensure that we are genuinely delivering them. I think watch this space, but expect to watch it quickly as well, because I think we'll be moving quickly on this to really up the ante.

 

Kate Forbes

Okay and there are some very clear owners as well. Emma?

 

Emma Macdonald

Thank you very much, DFM. I just wanted to say thank you very much, not just to you but to everybody who's been here today and for the contributions. I hope you've enjoyed your visit to Shetland and I've really welcomed the approach that you've taken here today. The summing up of things, like Kathleen said, I think has been really helpful. I think going forward we can really start to drive some of the actions that we'd like to see, so I look forward to the next one in spring and thank you very much, everybody, for coming.

 

Kate Forbes

Great and on that note, safe travels home, thank you.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]