Publication - Minutes

Convention of the South of Scotland minutes: February 2023

Published: 12 July 2023
Directorate: Jobs and Wellbeing Economy Directorate
Topic: Economy
Date of meeting: 27 February 2023

Minutes from the meeting of the group on 27 February 2023.

Attendees and apologies

James Ayling, NHS Borders
Mike Cantlay, Scottish Funding Council
Elizabeth Corcoran, Skills Development Scotland
Jenni Craig, Scottish Borders Council
Michael Crawford, Rural Renaissance Ltd
Rob Dickson, VisitScotland
Archie Dryburgh, Dumfries and Galloway Council
John Evans, VCB
Alan Glasgow, Wheatley Homes South
Professor Russel Griggs, South of Scotland Enterprise
Scott Hamilton, Scottish Borders Council
Mark Hunter, Scottish Water
Euan Jardine, Scottish Borders Council
Mary McAllan, Scottish Government
Ray McCowan, Borders College
Mark McMullen, Scottish Enterprise
Jane Morrison-Ross , South of Scotland Enterprise
Elizabeth Passey, University of Glasgow
Bruce Pritchard, HWU
Shona Robison, Scottish Government
Mike Staples, South of Scotland Community Housing
Caroline Stuart, Dumfries and Galloway College
John Swinney, Scottish Government
Stephen Thompson, Dumfries and Galloway Council

Items and actions

Agenda

10:00 – 10:10 Welcome and Review of Previous Outcomes
10:10 – 10:25 Update from Regional Economic Partnership
10:25 – 13:05 Housing and Economy: sectoral approaches
10:25 – 10:35 Introduction and context setting (including video)
10:35 – 11:45 Session One – Developing Housing in the SoS
11:45 – 11:55 Comfort Break
11:55 – 13:05 Session Two – Affordable Housing - Registered Social Landlords and Community Led Housing
13:05 – 13:35 Lunch
13:35 – 14:05 Session Three – Private Rental Sector
14:05 – 14:15 Housing and Economy: drawing discussion together
14:15 – 14:25 Refreshment Break
14:25 – 14:35 Outcomes
14:35 – 14:40 Forward look and Close

Start of Transcript

John Swinney:

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Convention of the South of Scotland. I'm John Swinney, Deputy First Minister. It's my pleasure once again to convene the Convention of the South of Scotland. Thank you to Councillor Stephen Thompson, the Leader of Dumfries and Galloway Council, for the hospitality of the council in hosting this meeting today. We gather twice a year to look at issues of joint endeavour and of importance to the South of Scotland, drawing together all the various interested parties around the table today, the local authorities principally in Dumfries and Galloway and the Scottish Borders, the local enterprise company, South of Scotland Enterprise, the colleges and various - I'm just looking round to see I'm not insulting anybody - NHS Borders, Scottish Enterprise as well, Skills Development Scotland along with the government, to try to create common purpose.

I'm delighted at the way in which the agenda's been constructed today because, at our last session, we aired the importance of the issues around housing and housing supply, the interconnectedness of those issues with the economic agenda. The way in which the agenda has been structured today I think gives us a whole-day opportunity to try to wrestle with, well, how do some of these issues come together? How can they be resolved? What are the obstacles and barriers and questions that need to be considered in that respect? I'm very grateful to everyone who's contributed to putting together that agenda.

Unfortunately due to some domestic challenges I've got today, I'll have to leave at lunchtime. But Shona Robison - the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government - is with me all day and will convene the session to its conclusion later on today. I'll be here to just the break that we have for lunch, but Shona will be able to steer us to conclusions. Of course, the issues of housing are absolutely fundamental to Shona's responsibilities within government.

A welcome to everybody. To those of you who haven't participated in the Convention of the South of Scotland before, this is an open and courteous forum, so please just indicate if you want to speak. Those who are facilitating the sessions will invite you in to contribute. There is a public record obviously taken of this meeting. Know that the fact that there's cameras in front of me means that somehow this is being broadcast to people. It is. I'm getting a nod of the head. I suppose that's a warning for me to be careful what I say as much as a warning to anybody else in the room.

In terms of the day's structure, there will be live tweeting - the hashtag will be in your papers - @SpringCoSS2023. There's no fire alarm planned today. Catering for the refreshment break will be provided in the same area as lunch, which is a room to the right, which I presume is over there. I think that's all the housekeeping points I need to do just now.

In relation to the previous outcomes paper, that's there for everyone to note. Part of what we do at these discussions is take forward the agenda items to make sure that we've got accountability in building on those particular points. We'll continue that monitoring in the light of this meeting.

The first item of substance on our agenda today is in relation to an update from the Regional Economic Partnership. Let me just say a few words before I invite Councillor Stephen Thompson to speak on behalf of the Regional Economic Partnership. This is a really important body. Looking at the government's National Strategy for Economic Transformation, one of the key themes in that strategy is the importance of strong regional economies, so having a sense of common purpose in the regions of Scotland to ensure that we are maximising the economic potential and capability of all areas is fundamental to the overall performance of the Scottish economy.

The themes in the national strategy are mutually supportive, but one point that I would want to stress at the outset and in making the introduction to this item is the importance we attach to ensuring that we have distinctive economic approaches in each part of the country. By that, I mean that we have to satisfy ourselves in government that we are focused on what needs to be done in all different localities to generate the maximum economic impact possible.

It's not good enough for us to content ourselves that economic growth over the whole of Scotland might be at an acceptable level, but it's deficient in, for example, the South of Scotland or the North East of Scotland or the West of Scotland. We've got to work actively - and that's the core purpose of the South of Scotland Enterprise - to engage different organisations and bodies to make sure that we have the right economic plans in place in localities to ensure that we can deliver investments, that we can take the necessary steps to boost growth, that we can remove impediments and obstacles to development where they arise. The Regional Economic Partnership is the intervention that enables us to do that.

We have an update paper from the partnership. I'll invite Councillor Stephen Thompson to speak to that and then I'll take any other contributions and comments from people before we move on to the substance of the agenda on housing issues. I think for the purposes of today - and I'm looking for the sound people over here - I take it we're just pressing the button in front of you. I suspect it's probably one microphone on at the one time, so if we could just be attentive to that - so Stephen, over to you.

Stephen Robison:

Thank you, Deputy First Minister and members of the convention. I suppose maybe a bit after the fact now, but I'd like to extend a warm welcome on behalf of Dumfries and Galloway Council to this seventh meeting of the convention. It's great to see everybody in person. I think we've made considerable progress since the convention was established, setting shared ambitions for economic and social prosperity for the south and developing our partnership, working to ensure these are achieved. It's good to have this focus on housing and economy at the convention today, but I'll just go on to introducing the paper in terms of the REP which I think is item or papers 3 in your set.

I'd like to introduce the panel this morning and welcome interventions. Unfortunately my eyesight is not as well as Specsavers say it is, so if anyone wants to make an intervention around - if you take my apologies, I probably can't read the name, so if you just put your hand up, I'll take the submission.

But just to take the opportunity to welcome our fantastic panel here first, so just on the end, I'd like to introduce Liz Hamilton who's the Director of Planning for Homes for Scotland. We also have Neil Martin, Senior Land Manager of Persimmon East of Scotland. We've got Andrew Roberts, Strategic Land Director on Taylor Wimpey. Welcome. Mark Hunter, the General Manager, Development Services on Scottish Water. Thank you. Dave Bisset, Development Planner of Scottish Water. Really great to have all the infrastructure providers. Fergus Tickell, Head of System Transformation in SGN. We also have Ken Bowie, District General Manager for Dumfries and Galloway in SPEN, and Craig Arthur, Operational Director for SPD in SPEN as well. Thank you very much to all the panel.

If I could, just to build on the discussion that you've quite helpfully laid out this morning around distinctiveness, I'd like maybe to invite our private sector partners just to give us a little sense - no doubt we'll get into the challenges and priorities in a little while, but I'm really particularly interested in how we can build on the context that's been laid out in the films about the distinctiveness of here as a housing opportunity area. If we could maybe go to Neil first if that's okay, just from your point of view - and I understand there's issues and challenges, but in terms of this region and its unique selling point for housing and some of the attractions, just to give us a sense of some of that if you would. Then I'll take some other submissions as well. Neil.

Neil Martin:

Thank you. Thanks for inviting us here today.

I think the video certainly shows why we want to be building houses down here in the South of Scotland, the quality of life, the job opportunities that are there. I think that's an important factor to bear in mind. There is always a but to everything we say. It's how that translates into an economic appraisal of the opportunity when we're looking at it in terms of selling houses and delivering the new homes at a rate that suits our particular hurdle rates. But there's no getting away from the positives that exist here from a quality-of-life perspective. I think that's something we need to keep bearing in mind and reminding ourselves. I think the other aspect to it is that, I suppose selfishly, nobody's down here, so there's an opportunity for us to do something if it works for us from a balance-sheet perspective sort of thing. The opportunity's there. The quality-of-life aspect is certainly there. There is a big but beyond that, though, that we need to also bear in mind.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Thank you very much.

[Over speaking]

John Swinney:

Diarmaid, could I come in?

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Yes, please.

John Swinney:

I'm interested, Neil, in the point about the absence of players down here if I put it like that. I'm going to be necessarily superficial in what I say here, but if I assume that Persimmon are essentially a newbuild property type company, is it the case that that business model of newbuild is really - that would be the only option you would contemplate or are you into the concept of repurposing other properties that may well be here? Secondly does it strike you that you would have to construct a business model that relied upon the importation of labour from other parts of Scotland or England to do that in the absence of substantive footprint in the necessary skills and trades within the South of Scotland given the fact that - I don't have in front of me the regional employment data, but I'd be pretty confident that unemployment will be very low here and employment will be very high. It'll be a tight labour market.

Neil Martin:

I think what Persimmon does and what it does very well is build volume houses to meet a broad sector of the market. What we don't like doing and what we don't do, certainly from a business model perspective, is the refurbishment side of things. That's not part of what we do, because it doesn't fit our business model. We don't even like building flats to be honest, because again it's where our market focus is. The people that we want to sell houses to, the people that want to buy our houses are not looking for a flat. They're looking for a front door, back door type scenario. That's the first point is that we're looking for big sites that we can sell, build and sell at volume. That's where our business model is focused in on. They exist. One of the earlier points, they do exist here in Dumfries and Galloway and the Scottish Borders, so it's not as if there isn't an opportunity for us from that perspective.

In terms of the labour market, it is a fundamental problem quite honestly. Bringing joiners, electrician, bricklayers, it's a - I'm maybe characterising them wrongly, but they don't want to come down to the Borders, because there's plenty for them to do in the Central Belt where that main core business is focused. It gets to the point that, to actually build the houses, we're looking at our North of England business units and seeing what subcontractors they have who are more willing sometimes to come up into the Borders to build the houses sort of thing. There aren't the trades at the level that we need available in the central - sorry, in the South of Scotland. We either bring them down from the Central Belt or try and convince the North of England contractors to come up from there.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Thanks very much for the invitation and the introduction, DFM and Cabinet Secretary. Yeah, just to contextualise my role in SGN, I work for our Future of Energy Directorate. We're looking strategically at how we can decarbonise our gas networks. We know that there's going to be restrictions on the use of gas boilers in newbuilds coming forward, but we're also looking at some significant policy developments that are required to be put in place, particularly decision of the UK government in 2026 on the role of hydrogen in domestic heating.

We are looking at transforming our whole gas network to hydrogen for multiple uses actually to support the decarbonisation of multisector so industry, domestic heating, transport and so on. We don't expect that to be the only solution incidentally for domestic heating. We very much take a whole-system approach with colleagues in Scottish Power and SSE in the north. It's very important that we use every tool in our box to get to net zero. But fundamentally domestic heat is going to be a really important part of that story in meeting Scottish targets for, well, a million homes in low-carbon heat by 2030. Profoundly challenging, but we're up for the task of trying to achieve that. That, of course, is going to be a major steppingstone to net zero in 2045.

Something that particularly interests me from a strategic point of view - I come from a renewable energy background. I'm not a gas engineer, so I don't know much about the pipes themselves. But I've got a fairly good idea of the strategy that we need to follow here. What's really fascinating about the South West of Scotland is the huge renewable energy potential that there is in this part of the world. There's very, very significant deployment already of onshore wind. There's plans for a very strong pipeline of new onshore wind, much of it which is very profoundly challenged by expensive grid connection costs.

We're looking in a lot of detail. We've got a significant piece of work which we're talking to the Scottish Government about, looking at the opportunity for curtailed or constrained onshore wind and what that could mean for large-scale Indigenous production of green hydrogen in the future. It's not for now. This is going to be something that is going to be really important that housebuilders and the wider economy of the Scottish Borders and actually particularly the South West of Scotland need to be thinking about in terms of future-proofing strategy for the provision of hopefully low-cost Indigenous energy into existing housing stock and the new housing stock in this part of the world. Really important that we are thinking strategically about energy, because my view is that this is a really important selling point for the economy and subsequently the development of housing in this part of Scotland.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Thank you very much. Brilliant. Yes, please.

Archie Dryburgh:

Thanks very much for that. Just coming back on that particular point there - and obviously the infrastructure's going to be really important for any newbuild coming in. Within those discussions, are you looking at direct feed? Are you looking at battery storage? Are you looking at all the potential for renewable and also capabilities within the maintenance side of that for the local population?

Fergus Tickell:

Yeah, I think we have to take this in quite a stepwise way. This first piece of work that we are carrying out is to try and identify the scale of the opportunity for green hydrogen production. This will go hand in hand with batteries and with effective direct feed private wires in some circumstances, particularly for industrial decarbonisation. We're taking this stepwise. My vision for this, if you like, is to understand the volumes of potential hydrogen production. Now in terms of back-of-envelope calculations, not to pre-empt the outcome of the study, but we are talking about potentially hundreds of thousands of homes' worth of green hydrogen potentially could be produced from curtailed onshore wind right now. It's a huge amount, paid for incidentally by consumers through curtailment payments to the operators of windfarms that are told to constrain when the grid can't take it.

We want to understand the quantum of what's here. Once we've got that information, we'll start thinking about how we can develop a new pipe network to give a route to market for that hydrogen. We're doing this actually across much of the rest of Scotland as well, from Aberdeen down the East Coast and across the Central Belt. Into the South East Borders incidentally, we're doing pre-feed work to look at a 100-per-cent hydrogen local transmission system in Scotland as part of this process of transitioning.

But I think the critical - you're right. There's a whole lot of steps and issues here that we need to understand before we get to the point of thinking about the detail of and the implications of this. But at the moment, it's having a concept for the opportunity that's here for large-scale Indigenous low-carbon energy production that could benefit the local economy right across the South of Scotland.

John Swinney:

Can I just follow that point up, Fergus, with a similar question about skills? Because I think the same point that I put to Neil is one that troubles me, just about the availability of people and the necessary skills and perhaps to flag up, for the benefit of our college partners who are here today, just what type of - all of this feels like it's got at least a 10, 20-year development phase which in a sense, going back to the point Andrew made about pipeline, is important. If we can corral a few things together - skills pipeline, housing pipeline, energy supply pipeline - there is the possibility of a greater degree of viability of projects beginning to emerge. But I'm interested in what you feel about that transition that is required to get us to where we need to be, because we won't have these skills just now.

Fergus Tickell:

Yeah, I think it's a really good question actually, that. We've found down the East Coast - where, as I say, we're doing some preparatory work now around the development of the hydrogen economy there - it's very clear to see a pathway of transitioning oil and gas jobs and the educational infrastructure, the training infrastructure into a future low-carbon hydrogen economy. I think it's much more challenging once you get out into areas where there is not that longstanding tradition of oil and gas skills. Yeah, we really do have to start right now to develop particularly engineering skills and apprenticeships. SGN are kicking off a very large programme of new apprentice appointments as well as enhancing our connections with the key university and college institutions across the country.

Yeah, it is getting that engineering, apprentice-level skills programmes through the colleges and universities happening right now. There is a real shortage. There's a labour shortage across the board, isn't there, in so many sectors? We have to demonstrate that young people have a long-term future in the energy sector right now. We certainly think that the work we're doing in the low-carbon economy, the commitment that there is to turn the business into a low-carbon business - through hydrogen heat networks, biomethane and so on - is a really important way of attracting young people into the business, which - business as usual but could be just seen as sticking some natural gas through pipes. Very important. Very important for society, but in terms of getting new people into the sector, we need to demonstrate a commitment to low carbon. That's exactly what we're doing.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Fergus. Russel, [you wanted to come in].

Russel Griggs:

Yeah, just to build on Archie's point - Archie always makes good points - that this is - I think what we have to be careful about here is that there's not a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem. We were talking about this last week or I think it was on Friday, talking about green skills. It goes across a whole wide range of things. If there was one way of retrofitting a house, it would be quite easy, but there's not. If we're looking for one type of house to build new, it would be easy, but there's not. I think some of the challenges - and I'm not criticising at all any of the developers - is outside of Dumfries and probably the bigger towns in the Borders, we need 10 houses here, 12 houses there, six houses there. It's getting those type of things.

In terms of the good point that Archie raises about maintenance and where we're going forward, as we do develop different types of renewable technology, there will be different solutions. We don't need to just make more bricklayers, more joiners, more electricians. We need something that says, what is it that we mean by retrofitting? There may even be a different skill in retrofitting than there is in newbuild. I think we just have to be careful in this discussion that (a) we have no time to do this, because we're running out of time in some of the stuff that we have. But there is no one size fits all to this.

The point you make, Deputy First Minister, about skills being at the heart of this is absolutely critical, but we won't get the skills unless we have the local customers. That's why it's very important that through the RSLs or through a consortium of the private sector that we have something that the supply chain businesses can see to move them forward. I think once they see that, we'll start to get the commitment to carry on and build it more widely. But there isn't a one size fits all to this. I'll be quiet now.

[Male 1]:

Could I just agree with that?

[Over speaking]

Male 1:

Sorry, I just - that is such a fundamental point that we're going to have a much more complex set of solutions in the future, because we've got a very complex set of problems that we're trying to solve. We need to have the right skills to fit heat pumps into people's homes where that is the most appropriate way of delivering a low-carbon solution. We need a further set of skills if it's going to be a different type of electrification or if it's heat networks or if it's a hydrogen future. It's going to be much more complicated and we need to set up our skills base to recognise that level of complexity.

John Swinney:

What I would just want to lay down here is a point for us to reflect on is just what steps perhaps need to be taken to aggregate demand and activity, because it strikes me that we could end up having a right competition between the chicken and the egg about all of this for a long time. But drawing out of the conversation so far, our colleagues in the housebuilding sector are saying we need to have a good, clear, firm pipeline of activity. Some of that is not just housebuilders. It's RSLs. It's the government. It's all of the players that can be involved in that. There might be heritage trusts as well who've got historic buildings that might be able to be repurposed. But there's a cumulative aggregation of demand that is required to try to focus activity which is necessary to attract the population, generate the skills and then to provide a line of sight for developers, energy providers, et cetera, about how that - so it strikes me aggregation of demand is perhaps a key issue we need to - I'll bring in Shona and then Stephen.

Shona Robison:

I think all of that is hugely important. We also have to think, though, beyond some of the traditional methods of construction. A lot of work is going on around offsite construction, modern methods of construction. Obviously we've been doing a lot of that already in terms of the delivery of predominantly timber frame homes within Scotland. That technology has developed to the point of essentially fully kitted-out units coming off of a factory production line and then being installed onsite. Now for those small numbers of homes in rural communities, it can be a very, very good solution. As a government, we're working around a commercial assurance exercise involving Grant Thornton to look at I guess the benefits and risks analysis of doing this at scale, but some of the registered social landlords across Scotland have already been beating a path to some of the providers of these fully kitted-out homes. When I say fully kitted out, they literally come with kitchens, bathrooms, electrics, plumbing already in situ.

For areas with a skill shortage of those trades, it can indeed be a solution. My question to put in for some of the discussion of the day is how engaged is our South of Scotland partners in looking at some of that? What potential does it have for not just the use of the existing output of the factories that exist mainly in the Central Belt, but is there the potential to develop something in the South of Scotland in terms of the production? I just ask that question. There'll always be traditional housebuilding dominance, I suspect. But particularly for the affordable housing sector, it could potentially be a good solution and, for rural areas, a particularly good solution.

John Swinney:

Thanks, Shona.

[Over speaking]

Russel Griggs:

Deputy First Minister, if I may, you...

John Swinney:

Okay, okay.

Russel Griggs:

No, it was just to say you asked for some numbers. It took me some time to find them. We've just had some work done on what decarbonisation does in terms of housing and the numbers over the next - between 2030 and 2045. The investment required between now and 2030 just to retrofit for decarbonisation [where we are is] about 260 million. That creates just over 2,000 jobs between now and 2030. It creates, for the economy, about 112 million in direct GVA to the South of Scotland. If you start to look at the numbers, they are substantive. Seven-hundred-and-eighty million by the time we get to 2045. That's just in terms of decarbonising. That's not about newbuild or anything else. That's just about decarbonising.

This work was done by CLES as part of the work we're doing with the RSLs and looking at how we get houses suitable for the conditions that they'll have to do in 2030. The numbers are big which is good, which then to us means that there's a real opportunity for our supply chain in the South of Scotland now to go into that, because there is a measurable opportunity for them to go in. But in terms of the numbers for decarbonisation around 257 million by 2030 and about 2,300 jobs by 2030.

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. Okay, so just some reflections. A very, very helpful discussion there. If we take a 10-year horizon, there's phenomenal opportunity in this region. To realise that, there's the scales of investment and opportunity around the renewables, which then translates into the scale of opportunity around volume, [flats] and adaptation. Scale's important. Horizon's important, so we're able to look at the steps now and then lead that to the 10 years. But within that, your point, Deputy First Minister, around aggregation of demand but also making that visibility. If we aggregate it, we need to be able to see it. If we see it, then we can leverage the partnerships, leverage the opportunities and see the pipeline coming forward.

To Professor Griggs's point of view, within that, we need different models and then we need to look at the skills. There's an investment opportunity which is attractive to the nationals and also to grow at that SME level. Bringing that down on to the steps now, I suppose, bringing that in - I feel it's important, given that the context here is around housing and the economy, we have touched on exactly those interfaces. Now to bring it in to the steps of now. Now what? It feels to me, on that now what, we've talked about the importance of coordination, to your point, Cabinet Secretary, also around the innovation around different types of production but also around the adaptation and how that might work.

What I'd like to invite the panel to do if I may - and I know that Michael has come in - just to bring that in, around some of the priorities now, based on what we've talked about in this region now, to increase the pace and level of development. Just within this region, picking up on some of the opportunities we've laid out but just also on some of the specific contexts. If I could turn to you, Michael, just to get a sense from your point of view as a [unclear] business operating in the region, some of the priorities to increase the pace and level now.

Michael Crawford:

Thank you very much. I'm probably one of the older people here. I started work back in 1989 in the Borders and I've been based there ever since. We used to be able to build in every single settlement in the Borders and sell private housing. Unfortunately over time we can no longer do that. Prices have not kept up with the increase in building costs. While you can't do much about the regulatory costs with increase in building control standards to improve installation and bring in heat pumps and all the rest of it, where I think you can save costs and therefore free up and allow more settlements to be able to be commercially viable for developers is to reduce some of the burdens caused through the planning system.

The massive risk in the planning system is going for planning consent. If you're on a big site of 1000 houses or so or even 100 houses, these costs are spread over a vast number of units. We go for development sites of six to 12 houses. The fixed costs are the same. The risk is often greater, because [they] tend to be in smaller communities with stronger community representation and more objectors. It's a simple thing to do. But if you can do that, then you'll speed up and free up more housing demand and probably reduce the need for the expenditure on social rented housing, because more people will be able to get onto the housing ladder. For example, we're asked to do flood risk assessments when a building site's halfway up a hill. You're asked to do environmental surveys when there's been no previous development on the site. It's not a fault of the officials at the council, because they're just following what they see as good practice elsewhere in the country. But I noticed in the new - is it [PAN4]? The new one that's out that came round.

Male:

NPF4.

Michael Crawford:

NP4. It does make a statement that planning obligations have to be relevant to purpose. I think de minimis needs to come into things. If you can speed up the planning process, if you can reduce the conditions and maybe put a little bit more responsibility back to the officer so he can make a decision. Trust his professionalism. These guys are well trained. They're experienced. Allow them to take a decision and back it up, that they don't need to do as many surveys. Then I think you'll free up and you'll speed up the planning process.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Okay. Thank you, Michael. Just around proportionate expectations in the different areas but also around building on your expertise and delivering small-scale development at the right cost across the bit so around proportionate kind of bits. Could I just if it's okay, Liz, just to build on that around some of the opportunities around coordination and some of the experience from other parts of Scotland, how we might build on that experience?

Liz Hamilton:

Yeah. Thanks, Diarmaid. Just to start by saying Homes for Scotland represent the majority of newbuild companies in the country. Actually Dumfries and Galloway is one of four local authorities where we don't represent anybody. Just to put that out there now, there is clearly a challenge. I think the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway are actually two quite different propositions as well. I think one of the things that we've touched on is that opportunity for the pipeline management of sites. It's clearly something that's come through NPF4. A big positive of NPF4 is the deliverability of sites, so I think actually if you take a step back - and don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that development in the Central Belt - I don't think any of us are saying that development in the Central Belt is easy. It's just the challenges are more pronounced down here. I think there's a real opportunity for the South of Scotland to develop a blueprint in its approach to how actually you assess, review a land pipeline.

Could I just bring in that - and just want to build on that, the steps we take and the shared interest bit. If I may, I'm just going to challenge a number along the way and I may open it back for discussion. On the shared interest bit, we're saying that the distinctiveness of this region requires all the partners to work together in a different way to build the pipeline, to build the visibility, to create the opportunity for investment. Absolutely hear what you're saying, Kenny. Really helpful. What more could we do and you do around building that pipeline and that visibility to build that shared interest? I suppose it's equal for the public sector, the private sector, the infrastructure, because to Liz's point around if we were to build a regional programme, it won't work if we don't share programmes, we don't share visibility and we don't disclose some of [unclear]. I'm just interested what more could we do and what's in the way? If you don't mind, just to build on that please, Kenny...

Kenny Bowie:

Looking forward about how do you grow your business, it's all about understanding where people effectively want to live between Dumfries and Galloway and Scottish Borders. [We've been taking] some of the work that we've done up to date and understanding where effectively future employment is required. Is it in the main cities? Is it rural networks? There's a whole link in with what we were saying earlier on about the development for the area and the long term there, so it's joined up to where people are going to be. There's also this joined up to where there's - working with developers. I think we are quite fortunate that we do understand where a development is going to undertake quite far in advance, because we do get engaged earlier.

But it's just understanding what that whole combined approach is, because we do talk to individual developers about their area. There's not one body that looks across the whole area and starts to piece all that together. I think from there it's a matter of understanding from the other way is what areas are actually crying out for this type of development, that are looking to grow with it? Because I think there a number of areas, certainly through the work that South of Scotland Enterprise will do where you're trying to bring that growth into a specific area to offset other needs. It's understanding from the two approaches, what's in the pipeline is going to happen and what needs to happen to grow this [whole] and being round the table with that?

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Brilliant, yeah. Not to put words in your mouth, but there seems to be a need for a body that looks across the whole region and within that to build that pipeline to allow us to look at two priorities, priorities of areas that need to grow and priorities where interest is already there and we coordinate it better. Brilliant. Thanks. Yourself.

Mark Hunter:

Thanks, Diarmaid. Just to offer a suggestion that we've used elsewhere, so from the Scottish Water perspective, we're more than a utility provider. We're a utilities provider. We provide clean drinking water, we provide sewerage services and we also have to deal with the rainwater of houses. One of the challenges that we've come up with in the past is it might be okay for water. It might be okay for rainwater. But the sewerages is a problem. Therefore one of the things that we developed a number of years ago within Scottish Water was a tool called a readiness indicator where we looked at a number of development sites. We simply red, amber, greened them in terms of their readiness to go and the timeframe to actually allow them to go.

Yeah, I think that would make a lot of sense, not least that as well as the critical role of the strategic housing plan that obviously the local authority will be statutory responsible for developing, there's also the need to engage with businesses around the keyworker shortages that they have. Now I think that that leadership of the partnership would be best coming from yourselves in order to do that, because businesses will have to be part of the solution here in terms of what they can bring to the table as well as the identification of need and solutions to that. I guess that's why I started off earlier on saying there's not one solution here, because you've got a multiple of housing needs from the long-term needs of the settled communities to the needs of keyworkers who will need to come into those communities and will need housing, some on a short, medium and long-term basis. Looking at all of that, I think that wider perspective across all of those partners is going to be really important.

Russel Griggs:

Yes. If I can just make one point [unclear] but I don't disagree with you. I think, though, [if I may DFM] this fits right into the middle of public sector reform where all of this - to give communities the same type of power through partnerships, et cetera, that cities have in many ways - is where we need to drive. That just means we all need to work a bit harder at working together, but it may well mean that - not changing powers, but we just have to flex a bit sometimes about what we do.

John Swinney:

Certainly. Scott, and then I'll come to you, Diarmaid, to wind up.

Scott Hamilton:

Thank you very much, Deputy First Minister. I want to highlight a project that's going on in the Scottish Borders. That's the Tweedbank expansion and development there. I know Chapelcross was mentioned earlier in discussions and it's very much along that same line. We are the landowner there now and we're also going to be the customer. We know that there's interest in development of that site and we know there is demand. It's bringing all those partners together, which has I think been challenging. I'm looking at my officers there. We recognise that. But I think the key message I want to share there is it is possible. Where there is opportunity, we can overcome these challenges which have been discussed here this morning.

One part that I would quite like to just mention that I don't think really has popped up in discussion is that we are a low-wage area. When we talk about housing, housing has to reflect that. I know that might not be a popular thing to developers. But when we talk about one of the lowest paid weekly take-home pay packets, that does affect your household income and then that affords what you can have in life. Now if we're going to go forward with this, I think we need to be very clear that that low-wage economy that we have here will not change overnight, but it will get better if we work together on this. That working together part, which has been discussed, I think is really important here.

In the Scottish Borders, we have a business called the Borders Machinery Ring. It's almost like a cooperative between agriculture partners. That's what I'm thinking is something that could work in the building sector of some degree here to provide that continuity, to work together. One comment is that we do have a number of skilled individuals. I can only speak here for the Borders. I'm sure you have skilled people in Dumfries as well. But we do have a number of them. The capacity is the problem there. They're normally self-employed. They're normally working on their own. Whilst it gives you a tapestry of different individuals that can be tapped into, it's that coordination between them which I think is very difficult.

I think just on some of those comments which have been made, I fully support where the conversation's gone, but I do think it needs that coordination to take it to the next step. I think the benefit of skilling individuals but also making sure that they're transferrable skills will help that low-wage economy, which again will help the housing industry in the longer term.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Scott. Okay. Diarmaid, over to you to wind up please.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Okay.

John Swinney:

Thanks.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Deputy First Minister and colleagues, thanks so much. I'm mindful that we've got a few minutes left, so if I may, just to try and give a small summary of where we've got to. I think we started off by articulating the opportunity in this region so looking at that 10-year horizon, the opportunities around the renewables, the infrastructure, the coordination of bits. Inside that opportunity, we asserted that it needs a variety of solutions, not one size fits all. But the dimensions of it are (1) to tap into the scale of the renewables and the opportunities there but also to be mindful of the scales and the different scales of the opportunities, (2) to aggregate demand and visualise that so that we can see it, what, when, who and how. We build and adapt to some of the different models of implementation and we invest in the skills. On the horizons landscape, a complex of different approaches but, in a 10-year bit, exciting opportunities.

Bringing that forward then, the key discussion has been around how to facilitate the shared interest. I think, within the discussion, there's a commitment to the shared interest. The discussion is around how that's facilitated at the regional level through the REP and SOSE but also then how that moves through local prioritisation to the statutory functions and the business partners. To deliver of the facilitated shared interest, we need clarity on ways of working within the implementation of infrastructure. But we probably need a little bit of work around the coordinating, not to set up new structures but so that there's clarity of the entry points, who does what when and how does it work.

I suppose also then just to pick up on a really important dimension that we didn't articulate so much that, within that, there are infrastructures. It's not just a utility. It's a variety of infrastructures. The coordination of those infrastructures, the pipeline of those infrastructures and the skills around those infrastructures are key to delivering the opportunity of those horizons, are key to making manifest the facilitation of the shared interest is actually making a difference on the ground, are key to the communities that Professor Griggs rightly talks about so that we can see change happening on the street, in the old houses, in the communities moving forward.

Just to finish it out, four bits, horizons, facilitating the shared interest, ways of working on coordination and infrastructure beyond utilities. Thanks to colleagues and thanks to yourselves for all the input and richness. Thank you.

John Swinney:

Thanks very much, Diarmaid. I think that's a very helpful summary of a really valuable discussion. I'm immensely grateful to all of our different partners who've contributed to that discussion today. I think the crucial point about these discussions, the purpose of this convention is to bring together different perspectives and different interests and try to coalesce a bit around about a shared agenda. I think we've aired that quite helpfully. There's a facilitation role that South of Scotland Enterprise can take forward for us, working with obviously our public authorities, statutory agencies but also crucially our private sector providers in advancing this agenda. Thank you to everyone for your contributions. Diarmaid, thank you for facilitating that conversation. We'll take a short break for 10 minutes and we'll reconvene at five to 12. Thanks very much.

[Interval]

John Swinney:

Okay, folks, if I could ask people to take their seats please.

Okay. Thanks, everyone. That was a very helpful start to our conversation today. Our second session is going to focus on the theme of affordable housing. In the same spirit of our earlier conversation, we're going to move to have the discussion facilitated by one of our colleagues. Helen Forsyth, who is the Vice Chair of the South of Scotland Enterprise board and the Chair of the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, is going to lead us through the discussion on affordable houses. Helen, over to you. Thank you.

Helen Forsyth:

Thank you, Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary and both Council Leaders. Very nice to be here. This is a subject extremely dear to my heart. A lot of the issues have already really become apparent in the conversations we've just been having in the first session. However, I think there's still more to be said. I could feel my colleagues - who are way across the room, so I'm hoping I can see - would love to have an opportunity to explain where they are, what the opportunities they think are there and where they want things to happen but to give you some of the things that are going well as well, because we are working very closely together. I think they've got things to say.

I am just going to introduce them. I'm going to ask you just to put your hand up briefly so people see. Julia Mulloy is the Chief Executive of Scottish Borders Housing Association. You are also a member of the REP, I believe. Yes. Nile Istephan is Chief Executive of Eildon Housing. Next to him is Alan Glasgow who is the Managing Director of Wheatley Homes South in Dumfries and Galloway. Gary Alison is the Director of Property and Development in Loreburn. Next to him is Mike Staples who is the South of Scotland Community Housing and works on those wonderful small developments which are so important for the little villages. I think it's really important to remember that the voice is needed as Russel said. Next to him is Aaron Bell from Broatch Construction, so absolutely fantastic to have somebody who works in the Borders in construction. Aaron has worked closely with Mike on particular projects, Whithorn being one - which I'm delighted to have visited - and Glentrool being another, just to give you a sense of the kinds of work they're doing.

I'm not going to say a lot more except that I think we've already said that we also face challenges, but we think there are opportunities. But we do have some macroeconomic pressures. The issues facing the construction sector, which have been very clearly outlined in the first session, are very much ones that we also experience, but we've had some approaches. I'm going to ask my colleagues to talk. Clearly if people wish to ask questions of them individually - but I'll try and make sure that everybody gets a chance to say a little bit about the issues they're facing and some of the joint work they're doing. Because I have to start somewhere, I'm...

John Swinney:

Just before you start, Helen, can I just say I think part of the benefit of this forum is really to have an open exchange of views and ideas? I'm sorry that we didn't hear from our colleagues in the affordable housing section in the earlier discussion, so I'd be interested in any reflections you have of - because we talked very much about the perspective of how we get to a point of shared interest with our private sector colleagues. I'm really interested to understand, are there any reflections from that conversation that we've just had that are particularly apposite in relation to those involved in affordable housing and particularly because of the fact that obviously the government takes a very active role in the issue of affordable houses so that we can understand if there's any things that - not wishing in any way to suggest that my ministerial colleague is not perfect, as to whether there are other areas where we need to improve what we're doing. Thanks, Helen.

Helen Forsyth:

No, that's really helpful. Thank you. I'll ask Julia to begin. Obviously if people want to ask questions, please feel free to engage. Thank you.

Julia Mulloy:

Thank you, Helen. I think the reflections from the discussion earlier is how much we have in common with our colleagues in terms of the challenges but also how much we see the opportunities as well and maybe our role in terms of bringing additional opportunities because of the nature of who we are and what we do. Perhaps a fundamental issue for us is how we're defined, because we feel that we're working in multiple markets. In terms of housing and grants, we're defined as mainly urban areas, as not rural. In terms of procurement, the construction industry sees us as an urban area. As a rural area, the market is hard to access as we've heard. Also in terms of volume, we just don't offer the same volume as larger areas.

Then in terms of the rental markets, we operate in several markets. We believe that we could offer a really broad range of opportunities, not just for social rent but in midmarket rent and partnerships to deliver a range of options for the needs of our economy, particularly things like keyworker housing and more housing opportunities to attract and retain young people into the area. We have strong offers in terms of facilitating connections on skills as well.

I think we would say we are all pointing in the same direction in terms of the opportunity. There are opportunities to collaborate and work together to address that. But where we sit within those economies, what we'd really welcome is more flexibilities and maybe testing out new ways of working with procurement and rental models in the south that could really make a difference and show the rest of Scotland what we have to offer.

Helen Forsyth:

Thanks, Julia, so some clear pointers about some of the opportunities but also some of the challenges there. Nile, do you want to come in now?

Nile Istephan:

Yeah. Thank you. Just building on that, reflections from earlier, there are lots of things we do quite well in partnership across a range of organisations. I think one of the challenges is we are starting from a position of deficit, so there is an absolute [crude] shortage of housing of many types, including affordable housing in most of our communities. That's been built up historically and that's decidedly difficult to erode over time. We do some really good things. But we know, for example, when we build new homes and we let them - we have a choice-based letting system - it is not uncommon for us to have in excess of 100 bids for each and every property. That, as an expression of unmet demand, is pretty significant. We're used to hearing those types of figures in inner-city Edinburgh, but it may come as a surprise not operating in the South of Scotland that that level of outstanding housing need exists.

We're doing quite well in working with Scottish Government colleagues, local authorities and collaborating across our local partners to deliver. But as I say, we're starting off from a position of deficit. Eating into that deficit is difficult. I think as the point's been made before, the long-term nature is really, really important here. Short-term blips - a few more one year, a few less the next year - isn't going to cut it. It is a long-term issue.

If we're going to get the infrastructure and the utilities correct, then clearly that level of upfront investment has to happen in a clear and planned way. As I say, there are really good examples. We're onsite in Earlston at the moment because of investment that Scottish Water have put in. That wouldn't have been possible to get those 60-odd new homes under construction in that location on a former school site without that investment, so it does work. It does happen. Unfortunately we need it to happen more often in more places all of the time. That's clearly got its challenges in terms of the overall quantum of resource that we've got to work with, but it's not just the money. It's about the collaboration. It's about the expertise. It's about the joining up of those issues as well.

No, I guess that was - in terms of some opening reflections on the previous session, I think that was where I was coming from.

Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, we're - oh, if we were to start a job now, we'd be looking at a start in August or September. We are pretty much, yeah, fully booked. We're at the point where we can pick and choose the projects that we take on. That's probably the same for most of construction in the South of Scotland.

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

Helen Forsyth:

It's a very important point. I know Alan wants to come in and say something about it, but the people element of this is crucial. But I suppose I also wanted to say that one of the challenges for the RSLs is I think we've all, certainly during the period that I've worked here, been involved in employability and employability training. But it's a skill, because the individuals each have their own complex challenges as you said, Deputy First Minister.

One of the challenges I know in the eastern part of the Borders was that we didn't have any professional services. We had well-meaning local groups who tried to create employability. But we didn't have anyone who actually knew how to support individuals with quite complex needs back into the labour market, because it's time consuming and it's expensive. I think that's a whole other area, but you're right. It is actually one - and I know Russel - it's very dear to Russel's heart. We've talked a lot about trying to set up employability services as part of our mission and our work. I think we're trying to address that. Again it's got to be part of this facilitated, coordinated approach.

John Swinney:

I'm keen to make sure that we enlist the activities of all relevant partners, so you've got our local authorities. Skills Development Scotland as well must be part of that conversation too - but some of these issues are not just about employability. They're about the steps before you get anywhere near employability conversations. That's where other public authorities will have to be heavily involved. But again it's back to that concept of shared interest.

Helen Forsyth:

Thank you. I'm going to ask Alan to come in now.

Alan Glasgow:

Thanks. It was basically just to follow up from that point. It has been a challenge in terms of we've got a - for Wheatley Homes South, we have an employability - [called] Changing Lives. We had the training. A lot of the housing offices engaged at a very early point. But it was trying to create those opportunities. We were fortunate enough to do that programme when we changed the environmental service in the summertime, which created about 55 jobs, which was different for us. Again we didn't have the infrastructure at the start to do that and the training, but using the resources across the group helped support some of that. But that was something that was very valuable. We're currently working with the council to try and make sure we create more opportunities with that as well.

Helen Forsyth:

Julia, did you want to come in?

Julia Mulloy:

Yeah, I think another great illustration of that was the [Bean] project which was funded up until earlier this year. It was a partnership between the four Borders RSLs and the Wise Group. The whole purpose of it was just to get people work ready. In fact, in the short space of time that we all seconded people into it, we worked with people who were really hard to reach, very far away from the labour market. As a consequence, 53 people obtained employment, which wasn't an objective of the project. It maybe illustrates our ability, in terms of our connections with people on other issues in housing services, to really start the conversations and support people into that. Thanks.

John Swinney:

You see, Julia, you alight on some of my obsessions. One of them is compartmentalisation, because why on earth should you think that you're just housing providers? I know you don't, but why should you? The point you've just made is absolutely on the money, because you've got a connection with people through your engagement with them about housing provision and all the rest of it. You will find circumstances where people need to make progress in life. There are other ways in which you can help establish the arrangement. Those 53 taxpayers - to sound like the mercenary Acting Finance Minister that I am - are very, very important to have them contributing to our society. They wouldn't have contributed had you not established those links. You're almost a - I don't know - a kind of pathway for people to come along when they're needing that particular support. It resonates very strongly with the approach that we're trying to take on the wider reform of public services, which Mary McAllan leads for us.

Helen Forsyth:

Yes, I do understand your obsession with it, because it is certainly one of mine. The people who live in the houses, that's what it's all about. That's why we build the houses, for the people. However, one of the things in this discussion is how do we work together to build the houses so that people have the space to improve the quality of their life to feel happy, healthy, safety and employable? It's that holistic approach which I think we're trying to address.

But today there's a lot of issues here around - I hear an ask from the RSLs about having a range of tenures in the rented sector. Maybe I shouldn't comment on this, but I know Susan and I had a discussion, Susan Aktemel who will be talking later, that we didn't manage to get the private sector to come to this. There's a whole issue about having a range of tenures for rented accommodation in the Borders, because we're a low-waged economy as you said. Actually therefore we need a range of different rents. One of the obstacles has always been the level of the housing allowance, so these are things that, if we're all going to work together, we need to have a little think about. Shona.

Shona Robison:

Yeah. We share the frustration of the Local Housing Allowance, the fact it's not been uprated for three years I think now. We have made those representations to the UK government, because it's important. Otherwise it creates areas that are unaffordable for renters. That's not what we want to see.

I agree about the range of tenures. Midmarket rent, obviously important, social rent. The private rented sector as well has an important continuing, an important role to play. I'm just wondering whether one area that we have not explored and what more could we do in this is around empty homes. For example, in my city apparently, I'm told there are 800 empty homes in the city of Dundee. Therefore there must be scope - and we need to play our part in government - to have the levers to, I guess, carrots and sticks, incentivise those homes coming back into use. Now we understand all of the reasons behind. It could be bereavement. It could be someone going into a care home. It could be that the property has fallen into substandard quality. Therefore what could we do to incentivise bringing some of that back?

Now that would sit alongside obviously all of the work that's going on around newbuild and refurbishment, but I think there's more we can do there. But we need to just get the right incentives for people to either sell to RSL, a local authority or potentially to find other routes for those properties to be rented out. Also I think we need to work to support local authorities and RSLs to bring their own voids back into use more quickly. Obviously there was a COVID impact there, but again what more can we do to support that so that we're making best use of the assets that are already there? Keen to hear any views.

Helen Forsyth:

Okay. Well, of course, all the housing in the Borders and Dumfries and Galloway is in the ownership of the people over there rather than in the local authority. I don't know about your voids. Mine were pretty good, but that may be - and I know there was - we've always talked about it constantly to improve that. I don't know if you want to make any comments about the empty homes ideas and the challenges and the opportunities. Susan's going to come in, even though it's not her session yet. But go on, Susan.

Susan Aktemel:

Never lose an opportunity. We have an empty homes programme in Glasgow funded by the Scottish Government and Shelter. It's the first one that was funded outwith local authorities. I think you're absolutely right. Empty homes are the secret weapon here for me, listening to everything that I can hear now, because the stats from Shelter are saying that the average cost of bringing an empty home back into use is £12,000. Our experience is probably closer to about 20,000, but it's a lot less than 150,000 for a newbuild. We've talked about how much more economic activity can we create out of the folks that are not economically active? That's an untapped resource, combined with empty homes being an untapped resource. You have thousands in the South of Scotland. That certainly, in terms of what we're going to talk about later, would be one of the key areas that we want to focus on. If Homes for Good is able to come to the South of Scotland, empty homes are a key quick win, I think.

Helen Forsyth:

Thank you. Euan, you were...

Euan Jardine:

Yeah. Thank you. It's just at the Scottish Borders, we just put through our Executive Committee report on our Empty Homes Grant Scheme. We've got 16 applications through the period '22 to '23. It's up to £25,000 for those grants, so you're right. It's that sort of figure that's hitting. But that's in places like Galashiels, Eyemouth, Hawick, Selkirk, Duns, so it's across the Borders. It's not just one specific location. But I think it is - bringing those empty homes back is the priority. In the way out of Galashiels, there's a huge, old, abandoned mill that's been there for a long, long time. How can that be utilised? I know there was a plan come in a long time ago where they were wanting to put a swimming pool below [a] private house. It just never took off. I don't think that might be the right purpose for it.

But actually how do we work all in partnership to make something like that work? Because I think neighbourhoods and communities are great, but there's always that blight of an empty building, an abandoned building, a vacant building that we go past. I think it's really important. Even when you're walking through here, you'll see there's a building. I think if you came through the long-way car park that we did - [we] walked up the top-hand corner. There's a building that looks like it's out of commission. How could that be turned into homes or something for the ground? We've got the area. We've got the space. But it's working together again, I think, with the Scottish Government's help, councils' help and just get it right. People want to get into houses and homes.

There was a stat. About a third of people between 20 and 30 are now living at home with their parents or their - it's actually how can that change? They call it a boomerang. They leave for university, then they're going back. But how do we create the opportunity for them so they can get out and then they can get into the workforce, start delivering in communities and have that positive impact?

We talked there again about the positivity in getting to work, but for a lot of areas, especially affordable housing areas - and I've talked about this before, at the council, is there's a stigma of people who live in areas of affordable housing. There's a place, Melrose Gait in Galashiels that Eildon are part of, Persimmon's are a part of as well, so it's a mix between private and social housing. There was a bit of issues, bit of teething issues where benches were damaged or other things. I stood in the square. We had the police there. We had the youth workers there. We had all types of people there to try and assist. It worked out once I set up a residents' association with both residential, [the private land] people and people who are affordable housing. Everybody has to realise we have more in common than we do apart. I think that's the secret there. It’s, is it that blend of housing?

The only thing with that area I would say is there's 600 houses just about, which is like a village. However, there's only one shop. There's no community centre, et cetera. How can we get communities if we're not putting in the facilities to create communities in these little areas? I'll leave it there, but I think it's that empty homes and that communities and giving people that positive impact and outlook in life will create the future. Thanks.

John Swinney:

Helen Forsyth:

Thank you, Lorna. Mike, do you want to say a few words?

Mike Staples:

Thanks, Helen. I'd like to just make some general comments about community-led housing and the role there. As has been referenced by the RSLs, I think we see this as being a really tremendous moment of opportunity for the community-led housing sector. There's a momentum built. There's an increased confidence in communities because of delivered projects.

Part of the challenge we face is that we're working on a lot of small projects around the issue of getting programme to site. It's very difficult to procure the types of development where we're working on two, three, four, five units. But there's a large pipeline. Our work is oriented towards the principle of getting the right home in the right place. Small projects, big impact. We have a very supportive policy framework for this at the moment through the Rural Housing Fund and its continuity, the Land Fund, and the incoming action plan which is going to be really important to securing this area of work. As the Cabinet Secretary is aware, our challenge is really around resource and the scale of the pipeline at the moment. That's something we're working with the Scottish Government around.

To touch upon the previous point, I think that community-led housing is an area where we can intervene really strongly around empty homes and empty buildings. It's somewhere that we've built up a pipeline of projects, delivered projects in the south, like the Langholm Police Station project, Wigtown, Whithorn, here in Dumfries and Galloway benefiting from the Town Centre Living Fund. The Cabinet Secretary was talking there about flexibility of funding. This is an area that the Rural Housing Fund is really flexible around. We're seeing communities intervene in this way. Yeah, empty homes - also the type of funding Susan mentioned, we've also just received the same pot of funding from the Scottish Empty Homes Partnership to place a member of staff into the Scottish Borders, so we're looking actively how community led can intervene there.

Around that challenge of getting these projects to site and working with the SME guys and more with people like Aaron, I think we see partnership as being critical to everything. It's all about collaborative working. These small projects, how do we grasp that scale around them collectively? How do we work more effectively with the RSLs, with the councils and SOSE moving forward?

Helen Forsyth:

Thank you. Now I will draw it to a close as you asked. I think the key messages - and I'm not going to get them all, because there was so much said. But there's a real will and wish to have facilitation to collaborate well and to be open and share information to enable us to do that planning. I would go back to the first session where it was very pertinent that Scottish Water and the utilities talked about their challenges, because without them we can't do all the things we need to do.

Then I move on to the issue about without the capacity and the skills, we can't do any of this. What I heard was there are some real wonderful models of doing things to improve that, including employability training, but we need to make it bigger and wider. We need to be working to look at that. I really welcome the college's perspective and the fact that you felt there were things to take back about the promise of a longer line of work opportunities which would then give the college some confidence that they could deliver.

The other thing I heard was looking at models from elsewhere. Really even though some of those are urban, there is still some value in picking some of that up.

There was a message about that we need support on a wider range of rented tenures. I heard the Cabinet Secretary say, trust me, I've been banging that drum for some time and we'll keep saying it. That's really good to hear.

Then we've had quite an interesting debate about empty homes, because I think we all want the empty homes that, as Susan said, we can develop at 20,000. I heard both councils say that was possible. But it's the big old mill which might actually be considerably more. That's the challenge. That's where South of Scotland Community Housing has done some cracking work on some buildings that would not have survived. I think it goes back to the value of the heritage. I know that's a debate we have internally in SOSE, but I also heard Nile talking about the value of Kelso High School and why you have to balance cost with the community and the community needs. It goes back to Euan's point about you can't just build the houses. You've got to have the other bits that are happening.

Finally offsite housing I think we feel is a way forward, but I did take Aaron's point about one set of training and then you find that everybody's gone down a different route. That's why the facilitation is crucial.

A reminder that in order for the housing associations in the South of Scotland to make it to net zero, it's going to be £65 million, so just need to acknowledge the costs involved in all of this.

But thank you very much. I hope it's been helpful. I think we've got some ideas about how we might move forward.

John Swinney:

Okay. Thanks very much, Helen, for drawing that to a conclusion. Thank you to our colleagues from the RSL and from the SME sector who've helped inform that conversation so helpfully.

I think the points and themes that we drew out of there have a link to our first session this morning, which is about shared interest and the need to draw together the respective interests that we have. But there's a distinctive element which I think - I'm struck by listening to the conversation that - a lot of good stuff is happening. Don't get me wrong. I very much appreciate what is happening. But I think there may be some more tangible propositions that could be generated if we look perhaps at those routes to expanding the labour market, the financial routes to how we might refurbish properties and get them back into use and how we might make some of the more strategic developments happen, which obviously the Community Housing Trust have been able to take forward into the bargain. I think if we can weave those points together for a later session, that will be helpful.

Okay, thanks everyone for your contributions. Thank you, Helen, for facilitating that. We're now going to break for lunch. As I said, I've got to leave just during the lunchbreak, so Shona will stay to conclude proceedings. But thank you all very much for your participation, your engagement today. I'll look forward to hearing the upshot of the conversations later on. Thank you very much.

[Interval]

Shona Robison:

Shall we just gather back round please? If there's anybody lingering and having coffee, if we could get them back through, that would be great. Thank you.

Okay, so let's make a start on the next session which, although it's focusing on the private rental sector, I suspect will probably touch on some of the issues that have already been touched on. I think it was emerging earlier in this morning's sessions that the solutions are really multi-tenure solutions here. There's not one solution. But the role of the private rental sector is obviously an important part of that. To kick off this part of the session, we have Jane Morrison-Ross from South of Scotland Enterprise who's going to facilitate this session. Without further ado, Jane, I'll hand over to you.

Jane Morrison-Ross:

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the introduction. This is going to be an interesting session, I think. We all recognise that the private rented sector plays a significant part in providing homes for people across the South of Scotland with over 10,000 registered landlords and 17,500 properties right across the south. The sector's a really important part of that diverse housing offer, another part of the jigsaw in helping us tackle this problem, particularly with the shortage, as we've heard, of houses to buy from affordable housing right through all of the different parts of the market. The sector can work in partnership with our RSLs and we've had some very positive conversations there. It can also offer solutions for all demographics from young people, short-term/long-term lets, keyworkers, elderly people and accessible housing.

This session is to discuss the challenges being faced by the sector, the opportunities the sector can bring to the South of Scotland, the work that we've been doing collaboratively with both local authorities to bring the Homes for Good social enterprise model to the South of Scotland and the role of the private rented sector in bringing empty property back into use and in town-centre regeneration. We should have some good points to cover. I'm delighted to introduce our key panellist, Susan Aktemel, the Founder and Executive Director of Homes for Good. Susan's joined by Naomi Johnson who's been working with Susan and with SOSE, carrying out analysis across the South of Scotland as well. Susan, if I could start the conversation going by asking you a little bit about the role the private rental sector can serve locally and why this is such an important part of the overall solution and model for the South of Scotland.

Susan Aktemel:

Thanks, Jane. I think, first of all, you touched on or you introduced the diverse range of people who live in the private rented sector. I think you were absolutely right. Had you looked at the private rented sector 10 years ago maybe, it would have been a different picture.

What we've seen in the scoping work that we've been doing - where we've really been benchmarking what goes on in the private rented sector from a rural perspective against what we know which is more of a national and urban perspective - is that although there are some key differences around the rural nature of properties and transport [and actually] the low-wage issue is actually the issue for affordability from what we've seen so far. There are lots and lots of similarities about what's going on nationally. Almost everything that we've seen, even the number of landlords, the number of - sorry, the number of properties per landlord, it's quite similar patterns that we're seeing. I think the challenges that we're seeing in the private rented sector in the South of Scotland are what we're seeing at a national level.

The role that the private rented sector has is - for me there's two roles that it has. It provides an alternative where there isn't another choice. This is really, really important. This is why I'm so deeply concerned about the trends that I'm now seeing in the private rented sector due to the market forces and legislation that's come through in the last year. I think somebody mentioned people that can't afford, think midmarket rent is an optimum tenure for people who can't afford to get a mortgage or are unable to get a mortgage. The private rented sector is absolutely a home there. I think it was Nile that said, for every one property that goes on the choice-based lettings, there's 100 applications. That is the indication of the demand. The waiting lists in social housing are of - the people need to live somewhere. If they can't buy a property and the RSL waiting lists are of the extent that they are in a particular area, the private rented sector has to be there to provide an element of housing.

Yeah, I think - I was really struck by the video actually where what we had were three very different types of employers. They were all saying that their ability to do business - whether that be salmon, whether that be the leisure industry or whether that be higher education - was directly impacted on the lack of housing supply.

The other thing about the private rented sector, which I'm sure everybody in here knows, is that it does provide a flexibility and a choice geographically that may not be available elsewhere. My understanding of housing associations - it may be different for maybe some of the ones here - is that the tenancy turnover is quite low. I think in the ones I've looked at, it's maybe been about eight per cent a year of tenancies turn over, maybe a little higher. Whereas in the private rented sector, it's typically probably more than 25 per cent, maybe 30 per cent. What that does is it creates opportunity for people to be able to move.

There are a number of different reasons that the private rented sector needs to be there to fill in the gaps for what else is going on in the other tenures.

Jane Morrison-Ross:

Thanks, Susan. I think with Homes for Good you're obviously a social enterprise and you have a model that looks at an ethical and sustainable approach to the people who live in your houses. As Helen said earlier, it's all about the people. What challenges are you seeing just now? You mentioned some of the statistics that you're seeing now. What challenges are facing you and that broader private rented sector now?

Susan Aktemel:

Sorry. What we're seeing coming out from industry reports and academic studies - and the local authority data is starting to come out and reflect this as well - is that the PRS is going into decline in terms of absolute numbers of properties and landlords. That is seen very clearly. It's very easy to see that in the deregistration or the changing numbers in the Landlord Registration Unit. It's gone into particular decline this year. I started to look at what the challenges are. Actually all of the challenges I'm about to mention impact on Homes for Good directly as well as individual landlords. The thing that I would say about the private rented sector is that there are so many moving parts that no one either government body or local authority body or agency can necessarily always fully see all the moving parts.

If we look at 2022, Section 24 - which is where landlords are no longer able to offset their cost of finance, their interest costs against their rental income - that came into full force last year. It was at that point that landlords realised or some landlords, many landlords would realise that it was actually costing them money to rent out properties because of the way that tax changes have evolved. I think also the Housing to 2040 consultation, which Homes for Good welcomed and responded positively to, did show a clear direction of travel around increasing demands being put on private rented sector landlords, some which would be happy with and some which maybe decide this is maybe not for me anymore.

I think the challenge we should also remember is this statistic where I think it's something like - was it 71 per cent of your landlords in the South of Scotland own less than two properties? There's hundreds of thousands of individual people that are actually responsible for providing a home for somebody, so there's no doubt that there's a challenge around standards and around everybody operating in the same way.

I think in answer to the first point, what can be done to incentivise landlords to sell, I suppose landlords are going to sell if it gets to a point where the operating conditions - well, there's a whole number of reasons why they'll sell, but the main one that we are seeing - and this is seen across the letting agency industry. We're seeing it in Glasgow that it's not economically viable to be a landlord anymore. If I'm being honest, it feels uncomfortable to me that all of the different market conditions plus legislation that is brought in at fairly short notice then creates the conditions that landlords feel they've got no choice other than to sell, but then another part of the public sector comes in and says, well, we'll buy. I think if there is a movement towards reducing the private rented sector - which is fine if there is - it would be good to understand that in a more strategic way.

What we do know is that there are other landlords who are buying properties, so there's some people that feel it's no longer viable to be a landlord and other properties are getting bought from them. There are two or three estate agents that have been created in the last year, I would say, and they've grown very rapidly, which is about buying tenanted properties. It's a funny dynamic. The market is shifting at the minute. But if the question is what could be done to incentivise, I think it would be - if RSLs and local authorities are able to buy properties, it would be being able to do that at a realistic market value, not over market and not under market. My most important concern would be the tenant, because what we've seen is great levels - we bought a lot of tenanted properties in Homes for Good. The distress that it causes a tenant when they think their landlord is selling, because of the wider context of the PRS market...

Shona Robison:

Yeah.

Susan Aktemel:

That is the number one thing, that people have to be protected when that transition of ownership is maybe going to happen.

Shona Robison:

It's on that last point that I guess I was getting at, because we've had some very productive discussions with COSLA around the potential purchase of with-tenant properties. I can recall conversations with a number of PRS landlords, going back even before this heightened economic challenge. A lot of them wanted to - their preference would have been to have sold to an RSL, the council with the tenant in situ, but they found it difficult to know who to talk to. Was there one kind of place of communication that those discussions could take place? A simple thing is to try and make it easier for PRS landlords, who are leaving for whatever reason and are worried about the effect on their tenant, to have a clear point of contact that - anyway, sorry, I cut across you there.

Susan Aktemel:

One thing I would say on that point, before I go on to talk about Homes for Good, is that Glasgow City Council has got quite a successful acquisition strategy where RSLs are grant funded to buy properties from landlords and other owners. That might be worth having a closer look at to see whether something might be replicable. Yeah, that's maybe a potential solution.

In terms of Homes for Good, I suppose in the context of what's happening here - quite often when I talk about Homes for Good in other parts of the country, the instant reaction is, we need a Homes for Good in our area. The one thing that we can't do is create a supply of properties out of thin air that isn't there. But there are two broad things that Homes for Good does. We're a letting agency which is a social enterprise and which is values led, so that means that we operate - I always say that we operate in the way that any good letting agency should. Now Homes for Good is 10 on Wednesday actually. When I started Homes for Good, the Cabinet Secretary may remember it was just when the lodging of deposits had become compulsory. It was one of the early parts of legislation that Scottish Government had created. That sent a lot of letting agents running to the hills with everybody's deposits. When I started Homes for Good, the letting agency industry was not a particularly savoury place to be operating. I think it's changed substantially since then.

But our letting agency model is around enabling landlords and tenants to live well in the private rented sector and to have their investments protected. Our core aim is to improve the quality of property and management in the private rented sector, so what we do is we're the middleman between tenants and landlords. We want our tenants to live well. But equally we want our landlords (1) to provide high-quality homes and understand what their roles and responsibilities are but also to be treated fairly. That's the first side of Homes for Good. It's a letting agency based with values. As a social enterprise from the outset, we're not motivated by maximising profit, which I think is important in this industry. What we could do in the South of Scotland would be engage with landlords that are maybe self-managing and maybe not doing a great job or that don't fully understand the legislation, so that's where we can operate.

The other side of Homes for Good, which is probably where I think there's more opportunity and potential, is that I saw about 11 years ago that there were a whole number of people on benefits who couldn't access anything in the private rented sector and also couldn't access social housing, so we created a - it's almost a tenure right in the middle. I call it the social private rented sector where I raised alternative investment to buy properties at lower value and renovate them but that they were still affordable for people on Housing Benefit. Our portfolio now is about 340 properties. About three quarters of them are in Glasgow and the rest are in Renfrewshire and Ayrshire. About 91 per cent of them are let out at Local Housing Allowance rate, which as you'll appreciate is becoming increasingly challenging in the environment that we're in. That's where I think there is an interesting opportunity.

I think that both elements so the way that we work with third-party landlords and the management approach plus our ability to raise investment and actually [takes] empty homes, lower-value assets that maybe the RSLs and other partners might not be interested in for whatever reason - I talk about us being the minnow that swims in-between the bigger fish. But in the South of Scotland, bringing two or three properties and turning them into homes could be really, really important, so we work at a small scale.

The third element of what Homes for Good does with tenants in the private rented sector is that because we're working with - we want people who have got very limited housing choice to get access to quality, so we have a tenancy support approach which we're working with people that are - maybe got multiple support needs, who many other private landlords may choose not to rent to. What we want to do is make sure that they have the home as long as they can have the home.

There's a combination of our standard letting agency model, tenancy support approach and an investment asset-building approach.

Jane Morrison-Ross:

Thank you, Susan. If I could bring Rob in and then I'd like to briefly go to Mike...

Rob Dickson:

Thanks, Jane. Cabinet Secretary, the perspective I wanted to just ask about and maybe get comments from Susan or indeed RSLs or private sector colleagues was about how private sector business might interact with the challenges that we've heard about in the housing. We saw in the video - and you highlighted, Susan - a tourism business that is not able to develop as fast as it would want to go. I confess bias in favour of tourism businesses, but other business, it's as true.

I'd be interested to understand what the opportunity is for them to address the shortage that they see in terms of housing, the link between that ability to have appropriate housing for employees, the tightness in the labour market that we touched on earlier and then the funding regimes that I think Gary in particular talked about - he's not here now, but for RSLs and whether the private rentage sector for those businesses might be a space into which they can invest at a lower risk than would otherwise be the case if they were doing this themselves, the development. They probably don't want to be developers. That's not what their business model is. But they do readily see that unless they can bring together the challenges we talked about and the tightness in the labour market and housing, they are simply not either going to be able to remain as a profitable business and/or grow at the speed they think this part of the country has in terms of potential for, example, more tourism.

I'm interested just in colleagues' perceptions on that and what more might be done in which VisitScotland can play a part if that's helpful.

Shona Robison:

Can I just jump in before others? I'm very aware of the Cairngorm partnership that they have been working around the development with businesses around a midmarket rent solution. Part of that for seasonal staff would be shared accommodation within that model. So there are examples happening where together businesses and obviously yourselves, a key organisation, have managed to make some progress through the midmarket rent model. It might be worth just unpacking that a bit and getting some of the detail to share locally here. It might not be entirely applicable, but it has been quite successful. Yeah.

Susan Aktemel:

What's good about today is that there's all different people from different sectors all having an input. South of Scotland Enterprise is very much the anchor or the blob of Blu-Tack as I call it that holds everybody together and pulls everything together. It struck me. One of the reports that I read early on when we started looking at working here was this concept of the low-wage economy. When I did a very quick analysis of rent levels and - at the one and two-bed end of the market. This is not talking about family housing now. This is talking about maybe for younger people. It struck me that the problem wasn't the rent levels. It was the wage levels potentially and the seasonal employment. It was that, first of all, rather than the actual rent. £400 a month for a one-bed property is not an excessive rent, but if you're in a low wage, it is a massive amount. Actually my ask to employers would be that, first and foremost, to look at the wage levels. Controversial that may be, but that's my feeling about it.

The next stage would be interesting. Could employers invest in property? Maybe they could. But I think that then there's something about collaboration instead. Why not collaborate with the housing providers? An employer's got their business model. A landlord, whether they be private or social, also have their business model. Maybe an employer could, for example, provide the deposit for a tenant moving into a private property or be the guarantor. There are different things that if we collaborate and understand what the employer's challenges are and what the housing provider's challenges are - and there's a joint way that that could work.

We saw that happen - this just a very quick anecdote - in a town in Ayrshire where we were advertising a property and the young person that was - he was a kitchen porter. It was his first home. He didn't have a tenancy history. Didn't have enough money for a deposit but needed a home. The restaurant owner agreed to be his guarantor and put a deposit up. That enabled the boy to get the job and to stay in his property for the duration of the job as well. That was a really easy thing with the restaurant owner saying, could I do this, and Homes for Good saying, yeah, that would work.

There's something about just conversation and actually just understanding, okay, so in that particular town, we're going to - if we had 10 more homes, that would be a transformational difference to the business, to the town and young people. Our employees would be able to come and stay here. It's just about bringing everyone together and us all talking openly about the business needs and risks.

Jane Morrison-Ross:

Thanks, Susan. I think also there's a couple of good examples in the South of Scotland, Gretna being one and Laggan Life being another, where the employers have looked directly at what they can do to create housing opportunities, but that's obviously businesses of a scale that are able to do that. I think that's a fantastic anecdote.

I'm very conscious of time. If I could just very briefly connect the dots between the social enterprise, private rented sector model and the community-led model, Mike, if you want to say anything there...

Mike Staples:

Yeah. Thank you. Obviously we've been speaking to Susan as plans have been developing. I think we probably see potential for some quite significant synergy here. I think the community-led model - albeit primarily funded through affordable housing supply funding - does sit, as Susan described, slightly in-between the social rented and private tenures. We have I think a shared vision around supply of safe, warm, secure, locally affordable homes that are meeting local needs. A lot of the work that we do relates to de-risking for communities and that long-term planning around management, cyclical maintenance, planning for the future. I think there's definitely a synergy there around potentially working with Homes for Good around housing management for housing that's in the ownership of community trusts.

I think the other part of it that we see potential synergy for us is just the research element of SOSE's work. We do a lot of very localised housing demand research. We also recently have done a larger piece here for the Crichton Trust, trying to put some evidence around the scale of demand in keyworker sector locally. I think some of that research - we have the capacity to support each other, I think, in developing a partnership.

Jane Morrison-Ross:

Thank you. If there are no additional questions, then I'm again conscious of time. To wrap up, I think as we've heard through the sessions today, there are a number of common threads. There are a number of pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that we need to try and solve the housing challenges across the South of Scotland, bearing in mind the nuances in different areas, different regions. But the rural economy perspective is incredibly important, the private rented sector. Particularly the social private rented sector seems to have a very important part to play in the solution and in the model. As Susan said, people need to live somewhere and we want them to live in the South of Scotland. We want them to live in homes that they want to stay in, they want to be in across the south as well. Susan, thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary.

Shona Robison:

Thanks very much, Jane. I think that what's coming out to me very clearly is that a lot of the building blocks are already here. There's a lot of really good work going on, but we can add momentum and amplification and do more at scale, I think, of some of the good things that are already happening. As a government, we're keen to help do that. Whether it's around the flexibility of existing funding streams, whether it's the need for us to look at some of that, whether there are barriers that we need to look at as a government, then we absolutely need to do that. Collaboration, working with partners across all of the tenures, working with local authorities, rural housing enablers, enterprise, educational institutions. Everybody around the table is absolutely playing an important role. I'm keen really that this joint working continues to ensure that the shared ambitions can be achieved.

Now we are hoping through all the copious notetaking that we would - and during the next short refreshment break that there's going to be an opportunity to pull together some of the outcomes that have been identified. I think those are very clear. It's about not ripping up what's going on and doing something entirely different. It's actually about doing more of what is going on around that collaboration. I think there's been some specific ideas generated through the day that we should capture. If we can give the secretariat maybe 10 minutes to produce these in a coherent fashion, then when we come back in 10 minutes, we can propose the outcomes of today's meeting and invite any final comments. We'll see you back here in 10 minutes. Good.

[Break]

Shona Robison:

Okay. Thanks, everybody. In the final 10 minutes - well, the next 10 minutes, I'm going to ask Diarmaid just to do a very quick drawing the discussion together, five minutes, and then we'll get the outcomes put up on the screen. I'll take you through that and what I'm asking you to do in a moment. But first, Diarmaid, just hand over to you.

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. I've got a few visuals if that's okay, just to walk through the discussion. I suppose the first key message is around the distinctiveness of here. Building on the first part, we talked about the different economic approaches but into Susan's discussion around work actively and engage differently, that kind of collaboration piece, the innovation and the adaptation bit, so I suppose just a foundation of the distinctiveness of here.

We then moved into the idea of aggregating. Because of the phenomenal opportunities here, bringing things together so making sense of that at different scales so [ones and twos] houses but also the renewable energy bit. That aggregating allows us to see across the next 10 years and the full potential of what's here, but it also means we need different models. We need to build the skills in it so a different way.

Inside the different way, we also then talked about facilitating the shared interest. To get the different way, a key role for the Regional Economic Partnership and the regional partners and working with local partners as well. That allows us then to build a structure around how we get all of this done from the small level to the big level on to the coordination level. The Deputy First Minister talks about not creating new structures but really about agreeing different ways of working and appropriate coordinating structures. That helps us to do three things. It helps us to get clear and coherent pipelines. It helps us to innovate around the products as you've rightly highlighted, Cabinet Secretary. Also it gives us clear visibility on the plans.

Just to bring that back together, why are we doing it really? I was really struck by colleagues in the housing association. In the affordable side, it's about the people but around positive life chances and living well. The coordination and the structural bits and Councillor Jardine's point around looking in the community bits. To do that, we need to agree to the shared interests which I know are part of the outcomes, build clear visibility on the pipeline but also commit to shared planning.

The final couple of slides then is just the potential of here to do that seems to be around tapping into the untapped human resource, but something very powerful in Susan's presentation about the right skills and the right approach to do that and the issues pre-employability. Second it's the untapped physical resources, bringing empty spaces back in but also anticipation around the development of the private rented sector and also that fantastic idea of the social rented sector. Then within that, to empower what's already happening and already powerful within the area. Mike's point around how small change in small areas can make a big difference, but it's around getting behind the community sector more.

To make the shared interest work, to give the visibility of the pipeline, to build on the shared planning, the resources we have are untapped human potential, untapped physical resources and to get behind the community sector. Developing that is, the Cabinet Secretary's point again, around connection over compartmentalisation and the opportunities of all of us as touchpoints to connect and bring things together, which then brought in Julia's point around a different way. That allows us to test different approaches to funding, different approaches to procurement, different frameworks of aggregating contractors as Councillor Thompson talked about and bringing that confidence and continuity of work.

The final slide is that then, within that, a key dimension of that to live well locally and to get behind the [purpose of people] is agile and effective approaches to skills, which allows us then to get behind what the industry is doing, what the college sector is doing, what the university sector's doing to be able to scale up, build up and sustain the region. With that, thank you very much.

Shona Robison:

I'm very impressed [laughs]. Thanks very much. We're going to just segue now into the outcomes if we can have those up on the screen please. Okay, so you'll be able to glance through these. One's going to follow from another, so there'll be a logic here in terms of the outcomes. We'll just let you look through these. While you're reading that, you will be able to give further written comments into these as they're sent round following the meeting, so don't worry if you're not able to flag something just now. You will be able to do that following this session.

Can we just move on to second one? It's that point about collaborative working, all of which has been a theme through the whole of the day, the coordination, working with a range of infrastructure providers. I think all of that captures the flavour of what was discussed earlier on.

Okay, moving on. Affordable housing, again capturing the importance to the local economy, good outcomes for people, collaboration - I think that's the word of the day - and the range of tenures. There's not one single solution here. The importance, though, of community-led housing and working with businesses. I think that for me is probably one of the key outcomes of the day. I'll certainly be taking a personal interest in seeing how that is taken forward. Okay. The role that we've just been talking about of the PRS and the flexibility and the fact that through the Homes for Good model that Susan was talking about, it shows how actually you can do that in a way that has a benefit to landlords but also to tenants in terms of ensuring quality and also supporting those who otherwise wouldn't get an opportunity to access that sector. I think that's been a very helpful area to cover today.

Next. Is that the four? Oh. Yeah. Okay. Well, hopefully you managed to get the gist of those outcomes. Is there any burning issues around these outcomes at the moment that people want to flag or are you happy to follow up with any comments once they are circulated round to you? [Pause] Everybody's nodding on the latter. Yes, it's been quite a long day.

On that point, I just want to thank everybody for your time today. I think it's time that's been well worth investing around the table. The agenda items for the next meeting, which is provisionally booked for 11 September, I think would be - if it could be communicated to the secretariat [of any] suggested themes, I think, rather than trying to do that by committee around the table today so if you've got thoughts around that. Thank you very much. I've got personally quite a few takeaways from today. I understand a lot more around the dynamics in the South of Scotland. I think you're doing some really good, innovative stuff. I really will keep a keen interest in how that's taken forward. If we as a government can play our part further to what we're doing at the moment, then we're really keen to do that. Thanks very much for your attendance. Thank you.

Meeting Closed

Papers can be made available on request from the CoSS Secretariat mailbox.

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Agenda

Start of Transcript

John Swinney:

Stephen Robison:

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

John Swinney:

Shona Robison:

Euan Jardine:

John Swinney:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Neil Martin:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

John Swinney:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

John Swinney:

Neil Martin:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Stephen Thompson:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Stephen Thompson:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Andrew Roberts:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Fergus Tickell:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Archie Dryburgh:

Fergus Tickell:

John Swinney:

Fergus Tickell:

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

[Male 1]:

Male 1:

John Swinney:

Shona Robison:

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

John Swinney:

Stephen Thompson:

Russel Griggs:

John Swinney:

Archie Dryburgh:

John Swinney:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Michael Crawford:

Male:

Michael Crawford:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Liz Hamilton:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

John Swinney:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Kenny Bowie:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Kenny Bowie:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Mark Hunter:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Mark Hunter:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Mark Hunter:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

John Swinney:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

Andrew Roberts:

Diarmaid Lawlor:

John Swinney:

Russel Griggs:

Jane Morrison-Ross:

Male:

Jane Morrison-Ross:

John Swinney: