Disability and Carer Benefits Expert Advisory Group minutes: November 2022

Attendees and apologies

Present

• Jim McCormick (Chair)
• Tressa Burke (Deputy Chair)
• Lucy Mulvagh
• Fiona Collie
• Jo McLaughlin
• Ed Pybus
• Bill Scott
• Simon Hodge
• Frank Reilly

Apologies

• Ewan Macdonald
• Shaben Begum
• Alan McDevitt

In attendance

• David Hilber (Scottish Government)
• Beth Stanners (Scottish Government)
• Theresa Beattie (Scottish Government)
• Euan Geddes (Scottish Government)
• Mhairi Wilson (Scottish Government)

Secretariat

• Kirsty Milligan (Scottish Government)
• Connie Penman (Scottish Government)

Items and actions

Welcome and group business

Jim welcomed everyone to the meeting. One amendment was required to be made to the minutes of the previous meeting. Aside from this, these were considered a true and accurate record. There were no declarations of interest. Connie confirmed all of the actions from the previous quarterly meeting were complete, apart from one which was in progress. Jim noted the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice was a legacy document that the group should be proud of.

Action one: Circulate the final beyond a safe and secure transfer advice to members

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of November 2022

Update on live benefit transfers

Jim welcomed David Hilber, Theresa Beattie, Euan Geddes, Mhairi Wilson, and Beth Stanners to the meeting. Theresa provided an update on live benefit transfers.  

The group and officials discussed the following:

• the timescales for providing the related requested advice
• the group’s view that the evaluation should explore the different experiences that different groups have had of the case transfer process and how these findings should be used  

• how the evaluation questions would be asked and who will ask them given that some were more complex than others

• the group’s view that the evaluation should explore people’s experiences of the different evidence requirements in the Scottish system compared to the DWP system, including how those with different conditions have found it
• who will be asked the evaluation questions, the need to identify barriers to some groups responding and the support required to address these barriers
• the need for detailed equalities data to be gathered and used during the evaluation
• Social Security Scotland proactively identifying incorrect benefit payments following case transfer and quickly rectifying this
• the need for clear communications detailing when case transfer will be complete. This should be with appropriate sensitivity to the cost-of-living crisis and then general worry and anxiety people are currently experiencing
• the idea of a future external independent evaluation of case transfer

Action two: Confirm timescales associated with the group's case transfer advice

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of November 2022

Carer’s Allowance to Scottish Carer’s Assistance Case Transfer

Euan presented to the group on Carer’s Allowance (CA) to Scottish Carer’s Assistance (SCA) transfer.

The group and officials then discussed the following:

• the law in relation to fraud is different in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK. Letting an overpayment run during the transfer period runs the risk of it becoming a criminal matter under Scottish law
• carers are generally anxious that they will make mistakes, accidentally, as a direct result of the transfer process, but then be penalised

Earnings

• some carers end up over the earnings threshold due to minimum wage increases happening before the earnings threshold ‘catches up’
• existing overpayments will remain with the DWP
• some carers may find it more challenging to supply evidence of earnings than others
• the group’s view that it is unnecessary for carers to supply evidence of earnings again (they will have already provided it to the DWP) just because they have transferred to the Scottish system

• the potential resource implications of checking the earnings of the Scottish Carer’s Assistance caseload

• the low incidence of fraudulent claims of Carer’s Allowance
• carers with fluctuating earnings and the related financial assessment period

Payment cycles

• imposing a weekly in advance payment cycle for all SCA claims would be a massive change for carers
• future Carer’s Allowance Supplement and the frequency of payments
• there is no general consensus amongst carers of which payment cycle is preferred, therefore a choice would be a welcome approach
• any issues or unintended consequences of changing payment cycles should be carefully considered, particularly in relation to Universal Credit

WADLA and DLA65+ Case Transfer

Beth presented to the group on options for WADLA and DLA65+. The group and officials then discussed the following:

• state pension age as the upper age limit for Personal Independence Payment (PIP)
• under regulation 27 of the PIP (Transitional Provisions) regulations 2013, a person over pensionable age could still claim PIP if they were entitled to DLA, under 65 on 6/4/2013, and had been asked to claim PIP by the Secretary of State. This provides a precedence for Cohort C to be treated in the same way

• communications on chosen option will have to be as clear as possible for clients and advisors, setting out what will and will not change
• the option to transfer everyone on DLA in Scotland to a Scottish equivalent, and then give those under pension age the option to transfer to ADP at a later date should they wish to
• the group’s view that re-assessing Cohort C under ADP rules would be hugely negative for a majority, including them losing their entitlement to the mobility component
• the group’s view that changes of circumstance for these cohorts should be assessed under DLA rules and not result in natural migration
• the group struggled to see any benefit to managed migration to ADP for Cohort B or C – transferring to ADP should be a choice
• for each cohort there should be the option to transfer if they wish

• the introduction of a Scottish equivalent to DLA would mean individuals with the same care and support needs could be unfairly advantaged/disadvantaged depending on which payment they were on. However, lifting more people out of poverty is the ultimate goal, even if it is more complex

• voluntary choice to transfer and informed choice
• the view of a number of members that the Scottish system does not need to be tied to what the DWP are doing – it should be about doing what is best for the people of Scotland
• a scenario where someone of pension age living in Scotland is transferred from DLA to a Scottish equivalent, then moves elsewhere in the UK. This would require them to start a new application for AA. Then if they moved back to Scotland they would move on to PADP. As a result they could be financially worse off as a result of the move. This is a likely scenario as people get older and move closer to relatives to receive support with their care needs
• the possibility of any unintended consequences of not following the DWP approach to eventually transferring everyone under 65 to PIP

Attendance Allowance to Pension Age Disability Payment Case Transfer

David presented to the group on Attendance Allowance to Pension Age Disability Payment transfer.

Officials and the group then discussed the following:

• the availability of information on AA clients’ conditions, impairments, and whether there is a Carer’s Allowance claim linked to their AA award
• the vulnerability of this group of clients, and the resultant need for communications to be adapted to that
• the importance of the stability of AA payments to clients, particularly as this group are more likely to have been in receipt of these payments for a long time
• the reduced likelihood that this group would report a change in circumstances. Therefore, a number of long-term low AA awards could now be eligible for high awards
• potential Social Security Scotland resource that could be set up to address this
• the continued and increased need for welfare rights organisations and advisors to ensure clients are aware of their choices and can support them should they need or want
• the opportunity for third sector organisations to work with Social Security Scotland to improve inclusive communications aimed at this group

Jim thanked the officials for their attendance.

Action three: Develop case transfer advice

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of November 2022

Any other business

Due to timing, Jim asked Connie to next discuss AOB items next.

Connie shared a progress update with the group covering outstanding and ongoing advice, responses, other work and proposed plans for the next quarterly meeting.

The group noted that they had not yet received correspondence from the Minister that detailed whether the next quarterly meeting of the group would be the final DACBEAG meeting. Members added, should the group conclude following the next meeting, Secretariat support would be required beyond this to finalise any outstanding work.

Action four: Finalise the employment injury assistance advice with workstream members

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of December 2022

Action five: Finalise letter from the group to the Deputy First Minister proposing a meeting

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of December 2022

Action six: Finalise logistics for the next quarterly meeting

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of December 2022

Group discussion

Jim asked the group for any further comments on the case transfer presentations that were provided during this quarterly meeting.

The group discussed the following:

• it was felt that previous DACBEAG comments and recommendations had been implemented to the case transfer process
• there were some technical issues that remained requiring further work to understand the potential implications
• compared to the DWP’s transfer of DLA to PIP, the Scottish system is an improvement
• the progress to date should be assessed against the case transfer principles and the principles in the 2018 Act
• the group welcomed recognition of errors that were quickly rectified
• there are a number of concerns surrounding the transfer of carers that are earners and the potential requirement for them to provide evidence of their earnings. If similar advice is not being sought from disabled people that transfer, the group doesn’t agree with it being asked of carers

• an alternative approach would be assuming the evidence provided by the DWP was accurate and reminding carers to report a change of circumstances to Social Security Scotland after they transfer. This would be far less resource intensive for Social Security Scotland too
• relying on HMRC, the DWP or any outside agencies for information could be problematic
• there are a number of challenges associated with using a real time earnings checker, interactions with Universal Credit and not accounting for deductions

• DWP have light touch evidence requirements for carers earnings as it is well established that there is a minimal risk of fraud. The group questioned why the Scottish Government would make this anymore intensive
• the group questioned how Social Security Scotland would cope with a large number of carers being asked to supply evidence of earnings and raised concerns that this could result in delays to payments and/or decisions
• the potential for unintended consequences of any future changes to ADP 
• the need to future proof decisions

Thanks and close

Action log

• Action one: Circulate the final beyond a safe and secure transfer advice to members. Action for: Secretariat. Action by: End of November 2022
• Action two: Confirm timescales associated with the group's case transfer advice. Action for: Secretariat. Action by: End of November 2022
• Action three: Develop case transfer advice. Action for: Secretariat. Action by: End of November 2022
• Action four: Finalise the employment injury assistance advice with workstream members. Action for: Secretariat. Action by: End of December 2022
• Action five: Finalise the letter from the group to the Deputy First Minister proposing a meeting. Action for: Secretariat. Action by: End of December 2022
• Action six: Finalise logistics for the next quarterly meeting. Action for: Secretariat. Action by: End of December 2022