Equality and Human Rights Budget Advisory Group minutes: April 2024

Attendees and apologies

Chair

• Angela O'Hagan (AOH)

Speakers

• Fiona Duncan, The Promise (FD)
• Claire Sweeney, The Promise (CS)

Attendees

• Ali Hosie (AH)
• Stephanie Griffin (SG)
• Carmen Martinez (CM)
• Rob Priestley (RP)
• Joanne Briggs (JB)
• David Holmes (DH)
• Tom Lamplugh (TL)
• Simon Wakefield (SW)

Observers

• Jillian Matthew (JM)
• Philippa Watkin (PW)
• Jennie Barugh (JBa)
• Gordon Paterson (GP)
• Gavin Henderson (GH)

Apologies

• Emma Congreve

Secretariat

• Niamh Cannon (NC)
• Laura Graham (LG)
• Julia McCombie (JMcC)

Items and actions

Welcome and Introductions

AOH welcomed Claire Sweeney and Fiona Duncan. AOH welcomed Laura Graham, Jennie Barugh, Gavin Henderson and Gordon Paterson.

JB shared a slide and spoke about the restructure that DGSE has been going through including the relevant Directors and Deputy Directors (DDs). JB stated that Alasdair Black, the new Deputy Director would be the primary contact for Scottish Exchequer once he has settled into his role. JB will be in touch with the Secretariat on this.

The Promise- Claire Sweeney and Fiona Duncan

CS and FD gave verbal updates on the ongoing work carried out by The Promise:

• Where the work came from: FD chaired the Independent Care Review that concluded in 2020. This looked at how the state engages in family life, especially around children and the care system. One of the reports that came from this was called ‘Follow the Money’ and this focused on human cost- FD and colleagues built a methodology called human and economic cost modelling to write this report. They did this using the Joesph Rowntree Foundation formula to build their own formula in-house. The report found that the human cost of being in the care system is life-long.
• In 2020, Scotland spent around £942 million on its care system and a further £875 million on the systems that have disproportionate members of the care system community in them because the care system had failed them in some way.
• ‘Follow The Money’ aims to show a new and compelling way of budgeting that takes into account the life-long human cost of the care-system. The report highlighted that fragmented funding across the care system was a huge challenge for tackling these issues.
• The methodology that has been built focuses on investment and disinvestment.
• The Promise colleagues have been engaging with Government on this.
• The methodology model is based on three areas of mapping: policy, funding and people. This mapping covers the national and local level.
• The Promise have been working with a range of organisations on this model- third sector, front-line workers, the public, statutory bodies, Government and policy contacts.

•  The Promise colleagues are working on the probabilities of risk indicators- e.g. if you mother goes to prison how likely are you to go into care?
• Focusing on the Justice system and how they can aid families where mothers go to prison or housing when there is a risk or element of care experience built into this. Building up the details of how this will look.

FD welcomed any feedback and discussion on where EHRBAG and The Promise might have crossover/shared interest. AOH thanked The Promise colleagues for their presentation.

AOH asked who the intended users are of this methodology. FD replied- Third sectors and people who provide services to people who are in the system. People in Government- help to have more aligned policies with more cohesion around issues. Ultimate user is Scottish Government want it to inform the process of budgeting.

The Promise are also engaging with philanthropic community to try to persuade them to engage in a different way and support a shift towards prevention.

AOH highlighted that this work ties in with capacity and competence within government with impact assessments and seeing decisions and policies as intersecting and integrated in order to make more effective decisions about resource allocation.

KJ commented that this is a really strong piece of analysis. Suggested that there are some hooks you could make into other strategies in government, also will be strong links with NSET and wellbeing economy.

RP- commented that this is interesting work. RP agreed it is important to look at the big structural decisions, like PFG, and thinking about how The Promise methodology can improve these. Action: RP suggested a follow up with AOH on The Promise methodology

Action: FD and CS want a commitment out of Government to use this report. Offered to come back to EHRBAG for an in-person session and go through this. AH offered SHRC offices to host this in-person session.

OCEA- NSET- updates

DH gave updates on NSET reset using a PowerPoint slide presentation. These updates covered the following:

• Annual progress reports on NSET published June last year, and next one in June this year. National Performance Framework (NPF) is part of their thinking.
• Centre Of Expertise (COE) involved in refresh of the strategy - working with Mainstreaming team to improve the quality and consistency of the EQIAs we undertake. Senior commitment to tackle inequalities from the start of the refresh.
• COE will be continue to push importance of listening to lived experience to policy leads involved in the refresh.
• COE will be continue to push importance of listening to lived experience to policy leads involved in the refresh.

Action: AOH noted it would be helpful to have some updates on how EQIAs and equality analysis is being implemented.

Action: KJ would be grateful for a proposition from EHRBAG members on how this work could be better progressed?

TL- NPF is undergoing a refresh at the moment and there could be a change in wording or points on this?

OECD Gender Budgeting Pilots- updates

SW gave updates on work with OECD. These updates mentioned the following:

• Final phase is the pilot projects working with Economy and Justice portfolios. Ran these pilots last week. Freya Jennson attended - a consultant who used to work for the Australian government on their Gender budgeting strategy.
• These workshop sessions were really interesting- portfolios are now to fill out templates and start working on their policy/budget lines. A few more sessions to come and then there will be a write up on this- hopefully by mid-May.

AOH asked for members to comment on Scherie’s recommendation that there should be less focus on the production on the EFSBS and more focus on the budget process (it will then write itself).

Question of timing so that EFSBS can become an evaluation - perhaps move it to the pre-budget time period

Could there be a mid-year process that could help to inform the final budget towards end of year? Could SW explore that as part of pilots? Is EFSBS an EQIA and Fairer Scotland IA? In terms of timing it is important that EFSBS is timed alongside budget if it is supposed to be and impact assessment.

AOH - EFSBS is not the presentation of IAs - they should be separate. Not a proxy for EQIA requirements, but builds on them.

Action: RP - we need direct EHRC engagement on any possible changes to EFSBS given prior conversations.

AOB

June EHRBAG- Cross Government event. AOH asked the group if they had any ideas or comments on what this might look like. Trying to involve colleagues from across government to provide an update on different strands of where the budget process is being tweaked from and equality and human rights perspective - what new work is underway (OECD pilots), how the PfG and budget commissions are happening.

Ms Martin expressed interest in coming to EHRBAG with thematic session on Just Transition - this could be a way to explore the process for incorporating equality and human rights in budget setting.

Could take the learning from the pilots to cross gov event - bring colleagues from key departments - just transition, fair work, soc sec, housing, transport etc. Might have had workshop with the promise by then too - what key process can we take from our learning their methodology?

Six questions that are getting traction in relation to budget setting and commissioning. Try to give examples of using those questions, how they are informed, where there is added value from the promise approach, and also pilots.

On the, 20th June - AOH and AH need to think and schedule time with the Secretariat on the format that will take. Action: the Secretariat will then ask EHRBAG what they want to take out of this cross government session.

AOH thanked everyone for their contributions and closed the meeting.