Equality and Human Rights Budget Advisory Group minutes: June 2024

Attendees and apologies

Chair

• Angela O’Hagan (AOH)

Attendees

• Joanne Briggs (JB)
• Stephanie Griffin (SG)
• Ali Hosie (AH)
• Tom Lamplugh (TH)
• Carmen Martinez (CM)
• Nina Miller (NM) 
• Katherine Ross(KR)
• Rob Priestley (RP) 
• Simon Wakefield (SW)

Guests

• Mark Boyce (MB) 
• Daryl Boyd (DB) 
• Andrew Fraser (AF)
• Simon Hanzal (SH)
• Martin McDermott (MM)
• Maria McGrorry (MMc) 
• Helen Robertson (HR) 
• Kal Roderick (KRd) 
• Kyle Ross (KRo) 
• Philippa Watkin (PW)

 

Secretariat

• Laura Graham (LG) 
• Julia McCombie (JMc) 

Apologies

• David Holmes
• Jillian Matthew

 

Items and actions

Welcome and Introductions

Angela O'Hagan (AOH) welcomed all to call, gave brief introductions to who is here and what area they work in.

AOH gave overview of EHRBAG meeting –

• Meeting will focus on how the EHRBAG can share their learning and expertise with SG policy areas, to better enable them to engage with PfG and budget commissions through the equality and human rights budgeting lens.
• We will receive an update from analysts in Scottish Exchequer about the OECD gender budgeting pilots, then we will hear from EHRBAG members on what good practice in equality and human rights budgeting looks like.
• Following this, SG policy areas will provide an overview of their work, to enable discussion with the Group and exploration of how they can better embed equality and human rights considerations in their work.
• AOH noted that this is her last meeting as Chair of the EHRBAG and will provide some reflections at the end of the meeting.

Update on OECD Gender Budget Pilots

Introduction

SW/PW presented an update on the OECD Gender Budgeting Pilots in the Economy and Justice portfolios.

Work as part of efforts to improve EFSBS and budgeting. Changes include; earlier requests for info and line up with PfG, Ministerial workshop ran with cabinet looking at contributions across SG, deep dived into eight case studies and developed easy read EFSBS version.

Pilots were established to test the feasibility of producing clear gender goals for the SG and its departments, using EQIAs to assess Level 3 budget lines against department level goals, then completing gender budgeting reporting templates for those budget lines. Colleagues then tested the usefulness of these templates in relaying accurate information about the gender impacts of the policy area.

Feedback received from OECD on gender budgeting

Colleagues received positive feedback from the OECD, who noted there was strong political will to consider equality impacts, good external support and improvement of impact assessments and linking with the PfG.

The OECD have been critical of the ‘crowding out’ of gender by efforts to assess impacts on a large number of protected characteristics.

Lessons learned

Colleagues are working to take lessons learned from other countries, including: setting goals, process, budget tagging, outcome monitoring, statements and impact on decisions.

Want to ensure that they are budget tagging for goals and outcomes rather than every budget line.

Limited time to produce statements across budget cycle – positive to have a statement but not sure how many are read by decision makers around gender budget work.

Opportunities

• Raise profile of key issues in policy areas
• Encourage redesign of policy and redirection of funds.
• Identify overlapping activities across SG.
• Improve SG ability to address issues.
• OECD commended equality expertise as a key asset.

Questions/Views on OECD Pilots Update

Angela O'Hagan:

• Noted this is positive in terms of allocation of spend is impacting where we would like to be with gender budgeting. Hope this allows more effective policy making and resources.
• Interesting exercise brought up new issues/proposals. Helpful that this reinforces the difficulty of following the money in the SG.
• Highlighted importance of cross government/portfolio working to address issues and meet outcomes.
• Expressed concerns regarding tagging – needs to be used correctly.
• Action: AOH to send Simon Irish Government’s performance reporting review published last week.

Alison Hosie:

• Is encouraged by the pilot, interested in idea of budget tagging to look at budget through a human rights lens and identifying where different rights are being realised through the budget.
• Interested to piggyback on this exercise.
• Interested to see how the 6 questions of EHRBAG were answered and information collected from these responses.

Pilot Team response:

• PW stated that teams were asked questions based on OECD recommendations, not EHRBAG 6 questions.
• PW believes areas held back on making new proposals as a restriction on budget decisions – this is why we need a cross Government effort. This will need to reallocation of funds and redesign.
• Team is interested in implementing tagging approach.
• Want to continue using their international relationships to develop the work.

Policy Updates and Questions

NSET Update, Mark Boyce

• Due to the new First Miniter’s priorities and focus on actions and delivery, the NSET ‘refresh’ will now be set out as clear deliverable actions in the PfG.
• Action: MB covered what has been achieved so far by the team, he will send slides with what was discussed.
• Making plans for actions to be delivered over the next few years, these have to be deliverable, affordable and impactful.
• PfG is still being developed – limited on what can be discussed right now.
• On enterprise and innovation – transforming start-ups, reforming public sector assessments, and boosting university economy.
• On investment, the team are setting up a new system for investors and capital market and looking to set up a taskforce on housing investment.
• On labour market activity, they are reforming the skill system, increasing skill migration and taking on No One Left Behind approach.
• On business, the team are looking to implement the new business deal recommendations and a business support partnership.
• Team is also looking into new market opportunities and green investment.
• MB then proposed 3 questions to the Group;

1. How can they align with budget process?
2. How can they have the most impact in high priority areas?
3. What interventions can they take to do this?
4. Groups thoughts on measurable, achievable and affordable as basis for how they develop their plans?

Programme for Government Update, Martin McDermott

• Aiming for PfG publication in September.
• Working on assurance model for PfG.
• Looking to link and deliver this against new First Miniter’s priorities to ensure they are deliverable, affordable and impactful. Looking at engagement with external stakeholders – this is ongoing work to ensure we reach deliverable outcomes.
• Keen to align PfG with budget process.
• There is likely to be a UK fiscal event after election – may bring challenges in terms of budget timing.
• Policy areas need to ensure policies put forward are deliverable.

Questions/Views on policy updates

Nina Miller (NM) in chat – 'Flagging Audit Scotland's briefing on NSET from February this year and the recommendations which could be said are largely underpinned by the theme transparency. National Strategy for Economic Transformation | Audit Scotland'

Stephanie Griffin (SG) – positive to hear about potential of aligning PfG/budget. Should consider alignment across functions of the SG including equality outcomes and the National Performance Framework.

AH – agrees with Stephanie and is encouraged that this is beginning to head in the right direction.

Rob Priestley (RP) – asked if there is any intention to update the equality evidence impact statement which was published alongside NSET?

Katherine Ross (KR) responded – they are building on their existing evidence base from previous EQIAs. They will no redo these EQIAs but will put out an equalities position statement which will feed into assurance process for PfG. Team are engaging with colleagues to ensure that evidence is captured from previous EQIAs and to ensure compliance with the Public Sector Equality Duty.

AOH– Highlighted that green investments should include the care sector, and there is evidence to support this.

Carmen Martinez (CM) – Highlighted Austrian pilot that measured 80% return on investment in childcare. Keen to know more about attracting investors, worried about using private investment as this could sacrifice quality of care for profit.

MB – Noted that measurability is assessed at policy, senior and ministerial level. Mark going to take this information back to teams and is keen to share future developments with the EHRBAG.

Action: Secretariat to explore how and when further developments on NSET can be shared with EHRBAG, including update on the equalities position statement.

Update of Tackling Child Poverty, Andrew Fraser

• The First Minister has been categorical that eradicating child poverty is the number one priority for his government.
• Our approach to Tackling Child Poverty is built on a well-established evidence base. The three key drivers are: increasing incomes from work and earnings, tackling the cost of living, and maximising incomes from social security and benefits in-kind. There is also a need to also improve wellbeing of families and support the next generation of parents to thrive.
• Modelling published in February estimated that 100,000 children will be kept out of relative poverty in 2024/25 as a result of SG policies. However, there is still a considerable gap to close to meet the 2030 targets.
• The ‘Best Start, Bright Futures’ plan sets out the wide ranging action which SG is taking to tackle poverty, with evidence reviews published alongside each annual progress report which further strengthens the evidence base.
• The Child Poverty Programme monitors the implementation and delivery of key actions within the plan. This intelligence is fed into the Scottish Government’s Executive Team and to Ministers. There is a Ministerial oversight group ensuring that the Ministerial portfolios with the potential to make the most significant contributions to eradicating child poverty are maximising those opportunities.
• The team recognise the cross-cutting nature of this work. For example, for a childcare offer to be successful in supporting parents into work, it must sit alongside employability support and a labour market which delivers fair work for parents. The team take a unified approach.
• There are hard decisions to be made – across SG, all portfolios must consider value for money in public investment to get the right balance across the drivers in the short and longer term.
• Increasingly looking at systems approaches – there is pathfinder work being led in Clackmannanshire, Glasgow and Dundee – the team want to look at how these systems come together at local level to create better outcomes and will be expanding these systems in the coming year.
• The Scottish Government is working with local authorities, health boards and third sector organisations. The Scottish Budget 2024-25 commits to exploring a multi-year budget approach for employability, to allow the recruitment and retainment of staff to build on the services offered.
• Team have taken steps to strengthen internal government processes, such as reviewing accountable officer templates to ensure that impact on child poverty and strength of evidence is clear, and ensuring that consideration is also reflected in ministerial submissions and cabinet papers.
• The team continue to work with Scottish Exchequer and PfG colleagues on budget and PfG.

Questions/Views on policy update

AOH– This work highlights the importance of coherence across different policy teams and departments; for example, how NSET aligns with tackling child poverty. How are methods discussed today factored into decision making and reporting in relation to child poverty?

Tom Lamplugh (TL) – mindful that SG is minority government, how will this impact work? Highlighted the Poverty and Equality Commission’s recommendation that a cross-government group should be convened to support this work.

AF – Recognise need to build political consensus in relation to 2030 targets, cannot use just SCP to address inequalities in this space. Ministers are aware of the need for more open and productive discussion with opposition parties to meet goals. Difficult decisions must be made in terms of where investments are made. We recognise crossover with NSET in key areas, these have been considered when developing ‘Best Start, Bright Futures’, including fair work and employability. Considering how the SG can invest across portfolios to ramp up measures to address child poverty.   

Presentation from EHRBAG on good PfG and budget practice

RP provided a summary of advice that his team provides when reviewing EQIAs, PfG and budget returns:

• Good returns have the equalities considerations written into the main body of work. They are written together by the same people at the same time.
• Clear links between the portfolios’ over-arching purpose and strategic vision and Equality and Human Rights.
• Explaining what is meant when referring to ‘fairness’ and ‘the people of Scotland’ – what does fairness look like, and how far are we from that?
• Thinking of evidence first and ensuring policy is evidence-driven - before laying out policies we must have a clear understanding of the extent and impact of inequality relating to that portfolio.   
• Having a solid evidence base – the Equality Evidence Finder and EHRC publication ‘Is Scotland Fairer?’ provide a great starting point and should be considered even before reaching out to analytical colleagues.
• When there is little or no data available – we should assume that there is a differential impact and work back from there, rather than assuming that there is no impact because the evidence is not readily available.
• Furthermore, where there is little to no evidence available, the best returns explain how they are going to resolve that issue and close data gaps.
• Impact assessment and analysis returns should be connected and circular – larger scale doesn’t replace smaller scale impact assessments. These should inform you cumulative assessment and vice versa.
• Grounded in and aligned with existing frameworks and work. For example, returns that directly consider the three needs of the Public Sector Equality Duty: to eliminate discrimination, advance equality of opportunity, and foster good relations between people. Using this framework allows the fuller consideration of all aspects of this.
• The very best returns consider beyond this – for example from last year’s PFG work by international colleagues they clearly laid out the direct links between their work and UN Sustainable Development Goal (SDG).
• Be pragmatic about what can and can’t be delivered. Accountability frameworks ask for consideration of the impact on what is slowed or stopped. The very best cumulative assessments don’t shy away from this.
• Start early - In order for these processes to have an impact they need to be started early and explored with Ministers as early as possible.
• Finish late – you need to keep adjusting your policy and assessments as late-stage decisions affect your budget or PFG document. If you already have your evidence and impact assessments, you should be able to answer the late-stage question of ‘does this change have a positive or negative impact?’
• Impact assessments are never finished – they are living documents and when you find new data you should add this and consider whether you need to make any policy adjustments.

Questions/Views on Presentation

AOH – reflected on key challenges of responsibilities set out by Rob: resourcing, cost, knowledge building, reliance on civil society organisations. Will take these considerations/thoughts to the Senior Leadership Group and Minister in upcoming meetings.

SG – highlighted lack of impact assessments at strategic level, important for impact assessments to consider disadvantages of introducing new policies.

AH – asked what are the next steps for embedding these good practices across SG?

RP – will discuss this at a future meeting and/or bring up separately with individuals, will consider advantages/disadvantages of templates. 

Chair’s Reflections - “State of the Nation”

AOH provided reflections as outgoing Chair:

• AOH acknowledged and gave thanks for the work of individuals to support the EHRBAG over the years, including Noami Clark, Niamh Cannon, Laura Graham, Rob Priestley, Gillian Achurch, Liz Hawkins, Tom Lamplugh, Simon Wakefield, and Ben Walsh.
• AOH thanked external colleagues for their enduring commitment.
• AOH reflected on the ways in which EHRBAG work – it is an unusual space where we have a mix of different organisational perspectives which has been enormously helpful at times, for reminders of the context we work in as well as posing useful questions which have enhanced the work of the Group.
• The Group has benefited from the tenacity of members to continue work over the years throughout political and organisational changes.

Barriers to effective equality and human rights budgeting

• Although there has long been a political commitment to equality budgeting, we still do not have equality budgeting in Scotland, but not for lack of trying.
• There is inconsistency in engaging from leadership in finance and exchequer - if equality and human rights are not owned in their areas and by their leaders then progress is inconsistent and vulnerable.
• There is an enduring lack of understanding of the aim and meaning of integrating equality and human rights into the budget process, as well as understanding how equality considerations in policy enable the progressive realisation of rights.
• Overall, resistance is subtle - more of a benign resistance about capacity, time, multiple demands across the functions of government and scarcity of resources.
• What the EHRBAG has consistently said is that by taking and equality and human rights approach, you will have the starting point by which policy and budgeting decisions need to flow.
• There is a conceptual issue around equality mainstreaming. There is an intellectual exercise that is necessary to understand that inequality is a consequence of structures.
• Different protected characteristics lined up alongside each other has at times reinforced the marginalisation of equality analysis.
• There is a need for an integrated approach to policy making - childcare, transport, economy, social care are all aligned.
• There are some structural issues within the Scottish Government that are reenforced by siloed ways of working, poor operational use of EQIAs, insufficient time to build quality of practice, lack of resources, and inconsistent messaging from senior leaders and Ministers.

 Progress over the years

• AOH reflected that, despite these challenges, there has been significant process in advance equality and human rights budgeting.
• The EFSBS was introduced in 2009 (although this is an ongoing challenge)
• AOH is hopeful about the OECD pilots and the actions that can be taken forward from this to support the improvement of the larger framework.
• The inclusion of equality and human rights in budget commissions is a large step forward.
• The bringing together of budget preparation and PfG commissions that include equality and human rights considerations is positive.
• The OBI (credit to Ali for initiating this process) - huge learning coming out of this in terms of transparency, process, and communications.

 Next steps

• Build on the budget and PfG process - still need to see more buy in. Strong signals of support from Scottish Exchequer need to be consistent,
• Build on the EFSBS – it may be that this should be split up and published throughout the budget cycle.
• OBI shows progress - build on this and improve transiency in budget documents.
• AOH would like to see more output from commitment to citizens’ budget.
• Higher expectations of improved practice around equality analysis, including the EQIA process but also going beyond this.
• Some senior leadership is giving clear direction but this needs to be sustained.
• Commitments to multi-year budgeting come and go, but they are very positive and should continue.
• Equality and human rights budgeting should not be an add-on the budget process, but is the approach that will make better policy.

AOB

Secretariat agreed to provide an update on process for appointing a new Chair and the Promise Session via correspondence.

AOH brought the meeting to a close.