Equality and Human Rights Budget Advisory Group minutes: May 2024

Attendees and apologies

Chair

• Angela O'Hagan (AOH) 

Guests

• Jennie Barugh (JB)
• Alasdair Black (AB)
• John Somers (JS)
• Nick Bland (NB)
• Kathy Johnston (KJ)
• Martin McDermott (MM)
• Richard Shearer (RS)

EHRBAG Attendees 

• Emma Congreve (EC)
• Joanne Briggs (JBr)
• Stephanie Griffin (SG)
• David Holmes (DH)
• Ali Hosie (AH)
• Tom Lamplugh (TL)
• Carmen Martinez (CM)
• Angela Nolte (AN)
• Rob Priestley (RP)
• Simon Wakefield (SW)
• Philippa Watkin (PW)

EHRBAG Secretariat 

• Julia McCombie (JMc)
• Laura Graham (LG)
• Niamh Cannon (NC)

Apologies 

• Joanna Anderson
• Alison Cumming
• Matt Elsby

 

Items and actions

Welcome and Introductions

AOH welcomed the group. All members introduced themselves.

 

EHRBAG Action Plan

Scottish Government Directors, John Somers and Jennie Barugh, provided a brief overview of their area’s work in relation to the EHRBAG Action Plan. Updates are summarised below.

Director for Equality, Inclusion and Human Rights Update:

JS outlined the First Minister’s priorities of poverty, economy, climate emergency and public services and how equality and human rights are foundational in this. From meetings with colleagues across Government, JS is confident we are moving in the right direction, but acknowledges that work isn’t easy and requires resources, new thinking, and working in a reactive context. JS stated his main priority is ensuring his directorate is focused on where they add value, where they make impact, providing safe space for colleagues and provide challenge and support. The EHRBAG Action Plan is a key catalyst to advancing that agenda. Key updates on the action plan are as follows:

• The EHRBAG Secretariat team moved quickly to develop this action plan, along with a governance and reporting structure. They will explore an annual cross government event with EHRBAG to provide knowledge exchange.
• The consultation on the Equality and Human Rights Mainstreaming Strategy is near publication.
• Equality and Human Rights Senior Leadership Group was established to drive system change.  
• Improvements continue to me made to the EQIA process - updating guidance, tools, and training sessions. Dedicated team reviewing guidance, tools and training, providing bespoke training sessions. Improvement Programme taken forward to improve standard and completion of these projects as well as developing human rights impact assessments. 

AOH asked for confirmation that equality and human rights budgeting and thinking about resource allocation is part of the updated EQIA process. RP responded that the overall answer is yes – this is part of impact assessment process but also the wider assessment of impact which is done in different ways, e.g. EFSBS.

AOH asked if she was correct in thinking there was no mention of human rights or the Human Rights Bill in the First Minister’s recent announcement.

JS responded there is an upcoming conversation between Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and the First Minister which will delve into this in more detail, but JS thinks this does not indicate a change in direction, just something that hasn’t been discussed yet. Action: Agreed to keep AOH and the group informed with any more information on this. 

Director of Fiscal Sustainability and Exchequer Development Update:

• Highlighted that this agenda is important for the Directorate General Scottish Exchequer (DGSE), and for the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. JB noted that it is good for continuity that Ms Robison has kept her position as Cab Sec Finance. JB and AB are committed to strengthen our budget commitment and improvement with a focus on not just the assessment of impact but also using that in application of budgeting.  
• Actions in this plan are also aligned with the Open Government Framework. This double accountability is helpful and good progress has been made with the Open Government commitments.
• Government has made good progress in improving the accessibility of its financial data with the fiscal portal, which is a centrepiece of the Open Government commitment.
• Have developed an internal viable product which demonstrates what can be done using budget data going back three years. Next steps are to provide these visuals and insights into trends over time, showing how budgets have changed, and turn this into a public facing service.
• Another part of that commitment is benchmarking, Ali Hosie is doing great work on benchmarking the Scottish Government against best international practice. The SG has been doing internal work on benchmarking as well. Will use this to inform the programme of work on improving equality and human rights budgeting.  
• Process of EFSBS went through some improvements last year including alignment with PfG, engagement with ministers, setting out budget lines through case studies built on 6 question approach of EHRBAG.  
• Scottish Government has published distribution analysis for first time, showing transparency of impact decisions.  
• Officials are looking to learn from the OECD pilots and will be bringing this into the plan for the budget process this year. Working with AB on how this can be established as an integral part of the budget process.  
• Progress over this year to integrate across the government’s annual cycle – particularly PfG and budget – much better collaboration and understanding across these areas, better joining up of analysis and impact.  
• ‘Your Scotland, Your Finances’ has undergone some improvements in the last couple of years. More to do here and currently on hold as we work out our budget programme.  
• JB is very grateful for EHRBAG work and support, and patience as they grapple with challenging agenda, want to use this support to drive improvement.  
• DGSE are keen to take stock on overall improvement work – assessing of impact and how this can support gov to take choices, in a way that is genuinely integrated and connects across policies.   

AOH stated that it was positive to hear from DGSE that they are committed to this work and are putting a focus on PfG. The only concern is that with fast timescales this year there is risk of losing momentum and key learnings from last year. AOH commented that there are several drivers for transparency - especially the internal products mentioned by JB that show data from previous budget years. This could be used for the pre-budget scrutiny period, which has been weak in the past, and if made available to the public would help drive budget transparency.

AOH noted that ‘Your Scotland, Your Finances’ is paused pending resources and related this to wider concerns about participation and fiscal transparency.

AH contributed the following comments to the discussion:

• The Nordic Plus meeting from Open Government Partnership showed how fiscal transparency in other countries had aided the discovery of misspend and corruption. The cost of providing that information was worth it because they were able to identify where money was leaking out of the system. There is definitely cost-benefit to this.
• The potential for the portal to see those in-year changes is great. One of the biggest score deficits for Scotland is the lack of in-year reporting.
• Scotland increased score in terms of transparency is because of ‘Your Scotland, Your Finances,’ so if that isn’t available this year it will bring Scotland’s score down.
• There are positive signs for Scotland between 2019 and 2023, other countries have seen backsliding. We are one point shy of having adequate fiscal transparency. Action: AH will report back on this in due course.

JB highlighted that her team is putting together a value case for the portal and will be drawing on the examples given by AH from the Nordic Plus event. JB noted the significant overlap between this group and the Open Government group – participation, engagement and transparency being important for both. JB highlighted that planning around the budget is massively important for Government and Cab Sec Finance, and they want to keep the momentum going from last year’s process. The challenge will be focusing efforts on driving priorities – JB wants an open and honest assessment of what is and is not feasible for this budget year.

AOH stated that she hopes to have the continued process of alignment between budget and PfG this year. Assessment of impact and deployment of impact into government policy making is important.

Tax Updates

AOH handed over to RS to give updates on the Tax Advisory Group (TAG). The Group was set up last year to be an advisory group rather than a decision making group. The group does not have a role in decision making in terms of the budget process and the members are there as individuals, rather than representatives of their organisation. Terms of Reference, membership and minutes from the group can be found here. Some discussion points the group has covered include:

• Looking at best practice approach to engagement  
• Hearing from seldom heard voices – noting that the voices that should be heard can be very specific.
• Taxpayer knowledge also especially important:
  • Held focus groups last year on income tax – people didn’t understand how income tax structures affect the tax they pay, and wanted to know where the money went;
  • Want to ensure that everyone feels they have a legitimate voice when it comes to tax; 
  • There is a large focus on narrative in UK Government that income tax pays for benefits, so people who do not earn as much feel that they are not legitimate in discussions about tax and spend, but really, everyone pays tax and should be involved. 

• Working on tax literacy as a concept – as part of this, working out what people need to know and how to communicate and raise awareness on tax and spend for the general public. This then links into giving people a view and a voice on tax.

AOH thanked RS for his presentation and suggested that colleagues within tax strategy team could have conversations with EHRBAG members about maximisation of variety of voices (outwith EHRBAG context). 

RS asked the group for suggestions of any networks his team could engage with to raise awareness of upcoming consultation. AOH suggested NACWG, Poverty and Inequality Commission, Health and Social Care Alliances. Action: AOH happy to speak on this offline with Richard.

Action: RS to share a form of words with the group to be shared with their networks.

EFSBS and Budget Process

AOH handed over to AB for his agenda item.

AB keen to understand the issues with EFSBS and the budget process and drive improvement forward to ensure better delivery. Room for improvement in the budget process in how we ensure that equalities interests are considered at the appropriate stage. AB working on an improvement plan on what a budget process will look like to deliver in 25/26 and how this can be developed further for future years. The main points AB is focusing on are:

• Open Government work needs to be more accessible with the fiscal portal and transparency - how can this be improved further?
• EFSBS alignment with the budget process - an interrogation of the evidence early on to drive the process.
• Thinking of how we present the budget, formatting and accessibility and working with stakeholders to achieve this.
• Ensuring evidence and assessment drives the budget.
• Ministerial engagement and senior ownership with the EFSBS process early on to help steer the overall budget process.

AB noted there is still a lot to be confirmed in terms of how the process will look this year, but what’s important is understanding and bringing forward the EFSBS alignment and making sure that we go through the right evidence to let that drive the decision making process.

Action: AB would like to have 1 to 1 discussions with Group members to hear their concerns and what they would like to see improved in budget process. Would like to agree tangible deliverables, what and when we can deliver and how we do that.

EC would welcome a chat with AB on the above. EC highlighted that the challenge is with the implementation of these changes. EC asked how AB plans to tackle this implementation challenge and making the improvements a reality?

SW highlighted that due to the work with the OECD, SG are in a better position this year to implement these changes.

JB stated that the Government often says it can do more than what is possible within allotted resources, she wants to focus on specific areas where impact can be made e.g., OECD work that will have a ripple effect in its impact.

AOB

Proposal for June meeting

AOH reflected that following the discussion at this meeting, it would be useful to have a cross-government event to provide learning. AOH asked MMc to come in to speak on PfG and how this could feed into the June meeting.

MMc stated that there was a process in place to give the PfG document the best assurance possible. Still think this is what the FM wants to do, but now need to give advice following political changes. Advice will include information on alignment with budget process. The planning process on aligning budget and PfG had started, and whenever PfG happens, the budget formulation will work in tandem.  

Action: AOH requested any updates going forward to be shared with EHRABG on PFG when Scottish Government knows more. 

AH updated the group on the Promise session - it will be held on 18 July and will be hosted by AH with colleagues Fiona Duncan and Claire Sweeney presenting. They will share a more in-depth overview of the work they spoke about last time. Proposing that we start with lunch then early afternoon meeting to talk through their methodology in more detail.

AOH’s final EHRBAG meeting will be in June - AOH asked members if they would like the cross-government event. AOH preference to go ahead with June meeting as is. JS keen to keep the meeting in and have an opportunity to hear AOH closing reflections and looking forward - a ‘state of the nation’ reflection. AOH and the Secretariat will work out the outline in this and potentially look at another date if that works better.

AOH thanked everyone for their attendance and input then closed the meeting.