Equality and Human Rights Budget Advisory Group minutes: October 2024

Attendees and apologies

Interim Chair 

• Emma Congreve (EC) 

 Speakers 

• Shona Robison, Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Cab Sec) 

• Kaukab Stewart, Minister for Equalities (Minister) 

• Richard Shearer (RS) 

Attendees

• Sara Cowan (SC) 

• Jacqui Farmer (JF) 

• David Holmes (DH) 

• Tom Lamplugh (TL) 

• Angela Nolte (AN) 

• Rob Priestley (RP) 

• Simon Wakefield (SW) 

• Angela O’Hagan (AOH) 

  Observers 

• Jennie Barugh (JB) 

• Nick Bland (NB) 

• Elli Kontorravdis (EK) 

• Fiona Page (FP) 

• John Somers (JS) 

• Mike Tighe (MT) 

• Philippa Watkin (PW) 

 Secretariat 

• Niamh Cannon (NC) 

• Laura Graham (LG) 

• Julia McCombie (JM) 

• Gill McCrum (GM) 

  Apologies 

• Alison Hosie

Items and actions

Welcome and Introductions 

The Chair (EC) welcomed attendees and outlined the agenda for the meeting. 

 SG Tax Update 

Richard Shearer (RS) shared a presentation on updates on tax policy. The presentation covered: 

• Tax Advisory Group (TAG) - terms of reference agreed in January. They aim to meet 4x a year: next meeting on 6th November. 

• Discussions have included: engagement, data and tax strategy. 

• TAG discussed key issues as part of the development of the SG tax strategy. This will be published alongside the Scottish budget 2025-26. Development of the strategy also included a comprehensive stakeholder engagement process. 

• Tax Strategy to be action focused around a set of core themes.  The strategy will be accompanied by an outline approach to tax literacy. 

• RS asked the group to reflect on the tax action in the EHRBAG action plan. RS shared proposed re-wording in light of the progress this year. 

RS then took questions from the group: 

1. Can the Equality and Human Rights impact assessment process be included in the re-wording of the tax action, and what is being done on impact assessments with TAG. The member noted that they were looking mainly for assurance that the group was being challenged to think of equality and human rights impacts and this is where impact assessments are effective. 

TAG don’t produce recommendations or proposals as such. It is stated in the terms reference for the group that they have no role in the budget decision-making process but can give their general advice, so they don’t deal directly with impact assessments. However, there are a broad range of voices and viewpoints in the group.  

2. Has equality analysis been shared with the group and could EHRBAG provide support with this in the future, especially in terms of analysis of tax data. On the re-wording of the tax action on the EHRBAG action plan. The member suggested that equality analysis and TAG could be incorporated into this EHRBAG action re-wording. 

RS agreed that equality analysis could definitely be brought into TAGs data analysis- at the minute, the group tend to look at data on a high-level basis and have not yet delved into certain datasets. Some focus groups were run last year on the tax systems, within this people were asked about understanding of tax. This showed that people who interact most with the tax system know most about it, e.g. small business owners. RS would be interested in how we can help TAG have access to information that highlights tax data in relation to protected characteristics. 

3. In relation to 'tax literacy' which gaps in the public’s understanding of the tax system are you most concerned about?  

Officials are looking at doing more focused communication and how information around tax is presented. It is important to think about how we present information on tax and how people interact with our systems to find this information. On the tax literacy piece, the team are starting with an outcomes based approach on what impact they want information on tax to have and work from this starting point. 

4. How are internal communications on developing the tax strategy framing tax as a human rights issue, as in the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (CESCR) requirement to maximize available resources? 

The framework will be a mechanism to properly answer these questions- will be a process, a structure to apply to how we communicate. Thinking in terms of outcomes from the beginning. Ideally we would be able to create  multiple versions of documents so that they are accessible for all- would maximize the understanding level. 

 EC asked members if they were content with the new wording as proposed by RS for the tax action in the action plan. AOH asked if her previous question on internal communications on developing tax strategy could be reflected in the proposed re-wording somehow? RS replied that he is unable to answer that right now but can take this away. 

Sara Cowan suggested - ‘work with EHRBAG to ensure equalities analysis is considered in advice/discussion within the tax advisory group future tax options.’ 

EC suggested that the discussion can be taken offline to help pin down new wording and considerations.  

Action - Secretariat to circulate new set of wording based on the discussion  

Discussion with Ministers 

EC welcomed Ms. Robison, Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Cab Sec) and Ms. Stewart, Minister for Equalities (Minister) to the meeting and thanked them for taking the time to join today’s session.  

The Cab Sec covered the following points in her updates to the group: 

• Thanked the group for their ongoing advice and expertise to strengthen the approach to Equality and Human Rights budgeting. 

• Highlighted the benefits of multi-year budget reviews.  

• Noted equality and human rights are priorities for her. She is seeking to give those without much power an influence over these decisions. 

• She will be hosting a Ministerial workshop this evening with Cabinet colleagues which will focus on EFSBS and children’s rights. Second year hosting the workshop and shows a change in how Cabinet approach budget time. 

• Offered a comment on the fiscal statement- the Scottish Government (SG) continues to face the most difficult financial time and hard decisions have been made as a result. She wants to minimize impact where possible by looking for underspends. Acknowledged that a limited number of measures will still impact a number of groups - the upcoming budget will be challenging to deliver. 

• This is the first budget that will take place under a minority government so will be subject to negotiation, which can be a challenge but also an opportunity. 

• The Ministerial Workshop is part of the budget process and not the end result. 

• Aware of challenge for businesses and organisations to look at budgets beyond this annual process  

• Cab Sec would welcome EHRBAG’s thoughts on how we can look beyond annual horizons in terms of budget. 

The Cab Sec handed over to the Minister. The Minister: 

• Thanked the Cab Sec and group for having her.  

• Committed to making an impact in this role and supporting the Cab Sec in making improvements to the budget process. 

• Made it clear, re Human Rights Bill, that this is not a step back in relation to SG’s commitment to embed human rights budgeting in the Scottish Government. 

• Highlighted the importance of the three principles- accountability, participation and transparency- when embedding equality and human rights into the budget process. 

• Will be working with Cab Sec to signify the importance of equality and human rights budgeting to their Ministerial colleagues. The Minister will also be attending the Ministerial workshop to support the Cab Sec and this work. 

• Stated the importance of mainstreaming equality and human rights across government as a matter of urgency; noting that raising knowledge and competency amongst colleagues is a priority. 

• Will be meeting with Ministerial colleagues in the coming months to explore what actions can be taken in each portfolio to impact equality and human rights as well as ensuring the effective implementation of Equality Impact Assessments. 

• Is looking forward to having further discussion with the group and recognised the importance of the work they do. 

The Minister handed back to EC who opened the discussion to the group. 

1. what would The Minister and Cab Sec like from EHRBAG to drive this work forward? 

2. Regarding the upcoming Ministerial workshop- in a time of budget constraints and cuts- where are harms being created as a result. What would make it easier to be more transparent in these decisions? 

Cab Sec: it is helpful for EHRBAG to keep doing what they are doing, it is important to have experts challenging the Government on these points. The advice and feedback from EHRBAG is valued. It would be good to look at the longer-term direction of travel and how this can be improved for the budget. Evidence from the Open Budget Survey are important in this process. On transparency - there is always going to be room for improvement. Where difficult decisions have been made there is no point in sugar-coating it. SG are pushing the UK Government on big hitting items- wanting to avoid fiscal statement next year and getting the in-year budget correct. On the Ministerial Workshop - it is important to challenge ourselves and each other on what each Minister decides to spend their budget on. 

Minister:  keen for EHRBAG to be involved in how the Equality and Fairer Scotland Budget Statement (EFSBS) can be improved even further. In terms of transparency, where decisions can be made earlier this is beneficial for the budget process. 

3. A member wanted to reflect on something the Cab Sec said on difficult budget decisions. The member appreciated how difficult these decisions are - last year there were significant cuts in the house budget but had concerns around this. What are the impacts of other positive spending decisions versus the trade-off for spending decisions that have negative impacts and how are these balances decided? The member commented that it could be beneficial to show these on a longer-term basis going forward.  

Cab Sec: Housing is a priority looking at capital budget for 2025/26 and beyond. The killer for the housing budget was the 62% cut to financial transactions, which are a form of capital that is only really used for the affordable housing supply programme in the Scottish National Investment Bank. It would have been challenging to take capital from elsewhere to supplement this. I am hoping that we will receive a better trajectory on capital going forward. There are opportunities for Government to be smarter with how they grow capital - I am looking into these and recognises the importance of housing investment as lever to tackle poverty. 

It was noted by the Chair that this explanation was really useful information for EHRBAG members and for publications such as EFSBS to demonstrate transparency around decisions and processes. 

4. On the Ministerial Workshop, will there be an overview of how this impacts decision making? Can there be a link to show the impact on these? 

5. Another member flagged that EHRBAG have previously discussed a need for SG’s Equality Outcomes, the National Performance Framework, Programme for Government as well as economic events like spending reviews, to be coherent and consistent in their approaches and goals if ambitions to reduce inequalities are to be achieved. The member was aware that Scottish Exchequer colleagues are actively considering this issue and asked whether there are any considerations at Cabinet Secretary and Ministerial level to this issue? 

Cab Sec: both questions are linked, it is about the cumulative impact and looking at how decisions are not isolated from one another. What feeds through into local government and public spending for example. Overall picture and consistency is important here. Hopeful that workshop being held earlier (in budget process) can give a better overall picture of the impacts. It is still a work in progress around consistency and coherence and that there is a story to be told throughout this. SG are on a journey here - made more progress but much more to be done and important to show this. 

Minister: all portfolios have responsibility for equality and human rights issues. Her role is to support this and to see the cross-portfolio and cross-governmental links whilst also demonstrating how mainstreaming can work to deliver equality and human rights ambitions across Government. 

The Chair thanked the Cab Sec and Minister for the discussion and highlighted that EHRBAG can be used to evidence some of the challenges they face, there is a wealth of experience in the Group. Cab Sec welcomed returning to EHRBAG throughout the budget process for their advice and discussion and thanked the Group for all their work helping to improve the budget process. The Minster aligned herself with Cab Sec’s comments and is looking forward to continuing this work, taking advantage of EHRBAG’s expertise and knowledge. 

EC passed over to Angela Nolte (AN) and Jenny Barugh (JB) to follow up on next steps in the budget process and workshops. These points included: 

• In process working towards the budget on 4th December. Key milestone is the UK budget on 30th October. 

• Feels like a lot of uncertainty this year.  

• Agreed timetable with Scottish fiscal commission on the decisions that need to be taken. 

• Commissioned gathering evidence and developing initial view of the bigger picture. Commission looks at a range of options that the ministers are looking at in the fiscal space. 

• Hoping to commission out for the case studies soon. Hoping to have a section on major decisions and what this might include. 

 AOB 

The Secretariat gave an update on the application process for the position of Chair of EHRBAG – they have received a few applications, these are being reviewed before a submission will be sent to the Minister for a final decision. Expect to have someone in post before the end of the year. 

In the coming weeks the Secretariat will be in contact with members with proposals for the 2025 workplan, they would welcome any feedback or suggestions on topics or themes that members would like covered at meetings next year. 

Action - The Secretariat to follow up via correspondence: 

• RS’s wording proposal for the tax action in the action plan and get this confirmed with members. 

• Evidence paper on the EFSBS