Publication - FOI/EIR release

Ferguson Marine meetings attended by Finance Secretary Kate Forbes: FOI release

Published: 20 February 2024
Topic: Public sector
FOI reference: 202200275543
Date received: 25 January 2022
Date responded: 12 April 2022

Information request and response under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.

Information requested

Information relating to Ferguson Marine meetings attended by Kate Forbes, Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Economy on 17, 25 and 27 August 2021.

Who attended these meetings?
What were they about?
What was discussed?
In the meeting on 27 August 2021, did they discuss the resignation of Hair and Mackenzie?

Response

A copy of the information you requested is attached.

While our aim is to provide information whenever possible, in this instance we are unable to provide some of the information you have requested because of exemptions under sections 33(1)(b) – commercial interests, S38(1)(b) – personal data relating to a third party and 30(b)(ii) – free and frank exchange of views for the purposes of deliberation of FOISA applies to that information. The reasons why these exemptions apply are explained in the Annex to this letter.

The answer to your questions are as follows -

25 August 2021 Visit to Ferguson Marine

Who attended?

Kate Forbes MSP, Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Economy
The Cabinet Secretaries Private Secretary
One Policy Official

The Cabinet Secretary met with two groups of Ferguson Marine employees in separate sessions.

What was it about?
The Cabinet Secretary was there to reaffirm the Scottish Government’s commitment to the vessels, the workforce and the yard. The visit was also an opportunity for the Cabinet Secretary to visit the yard for the first time and meet the workforce in person. The Cabinet Secretary had been keen to visit the yard as soon as COVID-19 restrictions allowed for this.

What was discussed?
The discussions were wide ranging, but could be grouped under the following headings:

Vessel Progress
Working Practices
Competitiveness
Future Contracts

27 August 2021 Meeting
Who attended the meeting?

Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Economy

Ferguson Marine:

Tim Hair, Turnaround Director
Ferguson Marine, Commercial Director

Prospective Customer:

Seven Representatives

Government:

Five Civil Servants

What was it about?
A meeting with representatives from Ferguson Marine and a prospective customer in relation to a live procurement.

What was discussed?
The prospective customer was visiting Ferguson Marine as part of a technical assessment of the Ferguson Marine bid. The meeting had been arranged as an opportunity for the prospective customer to hear directly from the Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary’s attendance is in itself was intended to demonstrate the Scottish Government’s commitment to this bid.

Did they discuss the resignation of Hair and Mackenzie?
No.

The reasons why we don’t have some of the information you have requested are explained in the Annex A to this letter.

ANNEX A
REASONS FOR NOT PROVIDING INFORMATION
The Scottish Government does not have some of the information
The Scottish Government does not have the information you have asked for.

This is a formal notice under section 17(1) of FOISA that the Scottish Government does not have the information you have requested.

An exemption applies
An exemption under section 38(1)(b) (personal data of a third party) of FOISA applies to some of the information you have requested. This exemption applies to the names of third parties referenced throughout the documents within scope of the request. The Scottish Government has a policy of not disclosing the names of officials who are not Senior Civil Servants. The names of non-senior civil servants and Ferguson Marine employees have been redacted to protect their privacy. The contact information of all parties is also redacted throughout. This exemption is not subject to the ‘public interest test’, so we are not required to consider if the public interest in disclosing the information outweighs the public interest in applying the exemption.

An exemption applies, subject to the public interest test
An exemption under section 33(1)(b) of FOISA (commercial interests) applies to some of the information requested. This exemption applies because disclosure of this particular information would, or would be likely to, prejudice substantially the commercial interests of any person. “Person” includes a public authority, company and partnership. Disclosing this information would be likely to give Ferguson Marine’s competitors an advantage in future similar tendering exercises, which would substantially prejudice their ability to submit competitive tenders and so could significantly harm their commercial business. This exemption is also applied where the material relates to live procurement exercises. Disclosing the information would provide market intelligence that otherwise would not be available thus impacting on the ability of the business to win contracts. The exemption also applies to the pay negotiations details contained within the documents in scope of the request.

This exemption is subject to the ‘public interest test’. Therefore, taking account of all the circumstances of this case, we have considered if the public interest in disclosing the information outweighs the public interest in applying the exemption. We have found that, on balance, the public interest lies in favour of upholding the exemption. We recognise that there is a public interest in disclosing information as part of open and transparent government. However, there is a greater public interest in protecting there is a greater public interest in protecting the integrity of the procurement process and the commercial interests of tenderers.

While our aim is to provide information whenever possible, in this instance an exemption under section 30(b)(ii) of FOISA (free and frank exchange of views) applies to some of the information requested. This exemption applies because disclosure would, or would be likely to, inhibit substantially the free and frank exchange of views for the purposes of deliberation. This exemption recognises the need for Minister and officials to have a private space within which to discuss issues and options with external stakeholders before the Scottish Government reaches a settled public view. Disclosing the content of these discussions with the Ferguson Marine management will substantially inhibit such discussions in the future, because these stakeholders will be reluctant to provide their views fully and frankly if they believe that those views are likely to be made public.

This exemption is subject to the ‘public interest test’. Therefore, taking account of all the circumstances of this case, we have considered if the public interest in disclosing the information outweighs the public interest in applying the exemption. We have found that, on balance, the public interest lies in favour of upholding the exemption. We recognise that there is a public interest in disclosing information as part of open, transparent and accountable government, and to inform public debate. However, there is a greater public interest in allowing a private space within which officials and external stakeholders can provide free and frank advice to Ministers.

It is clearly in the public interest that Ministers can properly consider all options and decisions can be taken on fully informed advice and evidence. They need full and candid advice from officials to enable them to do so. Disclosure of this type of information could lead to a reduction in the comprehensiveness and frankness of such advice and views in the future, which would not be in the public interest.

About FOI

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