Minimum Income Guarantee Steering Group minutes: March 2024

Attendees and apologies

Strategy Group

• Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Co-Chair
• Caron Lindsay, Scottish Liberal Democrats
• Miles Briggs MSP, Scottish Conservative Party
• Paul O’Kane MSP, Scottish Labour Party

Expert Group

• Russell Gunson (Co-Chair), Head of Programmes and Practice, The Robertson Trust
• Andy White, Senior Officer, Glasgow City Health and Social Care Partnership
• Catherine Murphy, Executive Director, Engender
• Chris Birt, Associate Director, Joseph Rowntree Foundation
• Dave Hawkey, Senior Research Fellow, Institute for Public Policy Research
• Gerard McCartney, University of Glasgow
• John Dickie, Director, Child Poverty Action Group
• Mubin Haq, Chief Executive, ABRDN Financial Fairness Trust
• Peter Kelly, Director, Poverty Alliance
• Richard Meade, Director, Carers Scotland (on behalf of Fiona Collie)
• Ruth Steele, Head of Social Security Futures, Scottish Government
• Satwat Reham, Chief Executive, One Parent Families Scotland
• Marianne Scobie, Deputy Chief Executive, Glasgow Disability Alliance (on behalf of Tressa Burke)
• Sholen MacPherson, Senior Case Worker, Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights (on behalf of Kimberly Wong)

 Workstream members

• Carmen Martinez, Coordinator, Scottish Women’s Budget Group
• David Eyre, Media and Communications Officer, The Poverty Alliance

Expert By Experience Panel 

• Louise MacAllister, Engagement Lead, Involve
• Eilidh
• Anna
• Gary

 Nordic office

• Katrine Feldinger, Head of the Scottish Government Office, Denmark (Copenhagen)

 Secretariat

• Rebecca Darge, Minimum Income Guarantee Team Leader, Scottish Government
• Caitlin Forsyth, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Manager, Scottish Government
• Seona Carnegie, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Manager, Scottish Government
• Amanda Shaw, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Officer, Scottish Government
• Nicola Cowan, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Support Officer, Scottish Government

 Guests and observers

• Claire Renton, Deputy Director of Employability, Scottish Government
• Elizabeth Hurst-High, Social Security Strategy Lead, Scottish Government
• Evelyn Bowes, Principal Research Officer, Scottish Government
• Oonagh Fraser, Principle Research Officer, Scottish Government
• Dominic Munro, Economic Adviser, Scottish Government
• Michael Cairns, Economic Adviser, Scottish Government
• Jane Watson, Product Owner, Scottish Government
• Jennifer Quinn, Tackling Inequalities Policy Manager, Scottish Government
• Peter Wilson, Team Support Officer, Social Security Scotland

 Apologies

• Maggie Chapman MSP, Scottish Green Party
• Fiona Collie, Carers Scotland (Richard Meade deputised)
• Kimberly Wong, Parliamentary Officer, Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights (Sholen Macpherson deputised)
• Tressa Burke, Chief Executive, Glasgow Disability Alliance (Marianne Scobie deputised)
• Ben Harrison, Director, The Work Foundation
• Rachel Statham, Associate Director, Institute for Public Policy Research

Items and actions

Actions

• expert group members to confirm as soon as possible if they can attend the Expert by Experience Panel session on 20 April
• secretariat to work with the Nordic office to answer the questions that were asked by the group around unpaid carers, disability and intersectionality of poverty and feedback to members
• secretariat to consider how to build risks and dependencies into the work on social security
• secretariat to provide expert group members with further updates on Work and Services
• expert Group members to provide further comments on the social security element of the Minimum Income Guarantee by 5 April
• secretariat to consider the delivery and implementation of the nearer term steps on social security following expert group member feedback
• secretariat to offer additional sessions to discuss the initial steps on social security in more detail

Welcome and introductions

The Cabinet Secretary welcomed members to the meeting. She invited members of Strategy Group, Expert Group and workstream members to introduce themselves.

The Cabinet Secretary welcomed the members of the Expert by Experience Panel and thanked them for their work and contributions so far, highlighting that this would be the last meeting that Panel members would be joining.

Expert by Experience Panel update

Involve presented an outline of the Expert by Experience panel so far. They also asked that as many Expert Group members as possible try and attend the final session on 20 April. The Expert by Experience Panel members were invited to share their feedback and reflections on being a member of the panel, their hopes for a MIG now that the panel is coming to an end.

There was resounding thanks for the group, and a reminder that views of all members are important. Further encouragement was given for everyone to attend the last session on 20 April.

ACTION: Expert Group members to confirm as soon as possible if they can attend the session on 20 April.

Overview of the Minimum Income Guarantee vision

An overview was provided on the vision for a Minimum Income Guarantee.

Nordic office presentation

The Scottish Government Nordic Office provided a brief overview of the Danish model for social security and employment relations.

The Cabinet Secretary highlighted that although this is a time to think about the challenges of implementing a Minimum Income Guarantee, there is opportunity to be innovative in this space and encouraged the Expert Group to draw learning from this type of approach.

Members were invited to ask questions or comment:

• Ability to work was raised, it was highlighted that in the Nordic model that if people choose to not work then support is reduced a lot after two years. There is no conditionality for the first two years due to it being contribution based.

• A question was asked about the carer poverty rate in Denmark and how it compares to the Scottish carer poverty rate.
• There was also a question about what support is in place for disabled people who cannot work, and what the Danish mechanism for social care is.
• The very different role of Trade Unions was highlighted by members.
• Intersectionality was also raised and if there was information available on different levels of participation in the labour market and social security system.

ACTION: Secretariat to work with the Nordic Office to answer the questions that were asked by the group around unpaid carers, disability and intersectionality of poverty and feedback to members.

15:00 Strategy Group leave the meeting

Social Security

An overview was provided of the vision of social security, and options was given to the members for discussion and input. Members were also provided with an overview of potential nearer term steps.

 Members were invited to ask questions or provide feedback:

• Risks and unintended consequences were flagged, such as key dependencies on other organisations and it was requested that this be built into the work going forward.
• There was agreement that the longer-term vision for the social security element of a MIG was headed in the right direction, but that thinking around this should incorporate things such as contribution based and universal systems.

• There was an ask for clarity on what comes next after the Full Report is published. What becomes of all the papers, and if there was any indication of what the Scottish Government’s next steps are. Reassurance was provided that early discussions were happening and that the Scottish Government would provide any updates when appropriate.
• The Scottish Government reiterated that a MIG is wider than Social Security i.e. reforms to the labour market, services and work will be of equal importance. Future meetings will focus on these topics and ultimately the position on each of these areas will be brought together so Expert Group members can have oversight of the interlinkages.

ACTION: Expert Group members were asked to provide further feedback on the social security element of a MIG for further analysis, including what equalities considerations should be prioritised. The deadline for feedback was 5 April 2024.