Single Scottish Estate: Public Property Leaders Forum - September 2024

Attendees and apologies

• Alastair Watson, Valuation Office Agency
• Alex Lane, Fire Scotland
• Allan Harrow, South of Scotland Enterprise
• Anne McFadden, Creative Scotland
• Archie Macgregor, Scotland Water
• Callum McInnes, Inland Revenue
• Carole Kennedy, Care Inspectorate
• Charlie Lawrence, Highlands and Islands Enterprise
• Chris Reddick, Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission
• Craig Naylor, His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland
• David Lyon, Scottish Government
• David Swanson, Transport Scotland
• Euan McGalliard, Registers of Scotland
• Fiona MacTaggart, Scottish Environmental Protection Agency
• Helen Gibson, Scottish Funding Council
• Ian Allen, Scotland Children's Reporter Administration
• Ian Bowie, Scottish Government
• Ian Gibbs, Valuation Office Agency
• Ivan McKee, Minister of Public Finance
• John Rough, Highlands and Island Airports Limited
• Kate Christie, Cairngorms National Park Authority
• Kate Leer, Scotland Courts and Tribunals
• Keith Sefton, National Museums Scotland
• Linda MacMillan, National Libraries of Scotland
• Lisa Goldie, Scottish Government
• Lorraine Wood, Scottish Government
• Mark Jummun, Social Security Scotland
• Mark Wilcock, Forestry and Land Scotland
• Michael Stevens, Redress
• Morag Angus, Scottish Government
• Natalie Greenland, Food Standards Scotland
• Neil MacGregor, South of Scotland Enterprise
• Neil Milligan, Scottish Government
• Neville Prentice, Skills Development Scotland
• Nicola McBain, Disclosure Scotland
• Paul Keoghan, Risk Management Agency
• Paula Fern, Scottish Government
• Scott McEwen, Scottish Government
• Siobhan Rammell, Scottish Enterprise
• Steven Noble, Scottish Government
• Steven Speedie, Visit Scotland
• Stuart McQuarrie, Nature Scot
• Tony Cooper, Police
• Victoria Bowman, Students Awards Agency Scotland
• some attenddees have been redacted

1. Apologies

• Bastian Altrock, Forestry and Land Scotland
• David Wilkie, Scottish Prisons
• Lisa McGregor, Food Standards Scotland
• Nicola  Rudnicki, Social Security Scotland
• Philip Martin, Scottish Enterprise
• Rhona Ford, His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland
• Stuart McLaughlin, The Banks
• Some details have been redacted

Items and actions

• Welcome and introductions

The Chair welcomed participants to the 3rd meeting of the Public Sector Property Forum (PSPF), and asked all participants to introduce themselves

• Minister for Public Finance

The Chair invited Mr Ivan McKee, Minister for Public Finance to address the meeting.

Mr McKee:

The Minister thanked the Chair, and noted that it was a pleasure to address the meeting.  The Single Scottish Estate (SSE) programme is a great example of how we can work together across the Public Sector reform agenda. The SSE programme is about efficient use of public sector property and minimising costs. This is part of the wider Public Service Reform Programme (PSR). The SSE Senior Stakeholders Group which I chaired last week had an excellent discussion on the SSE programme.  We have already seen a £36 million saving in the first year of a five year programme. Through a collaborative approach and reduced costs we are providing best value for the taxpayer. Different public bodies are seeing the benefits of working together, with increased savings expected going forward.

The next large Location Based Review (LBR) will be for Edinburgh, and that will be a significant piece of work, and we will also be doing others across the country including, for example, in Inverness.

The Minister thanked all public bodies for working with Ministers on these estate matters, which is building on the good practice that was already in place.

The Chair thanked the Minister for his remarks and invited any questions – None

• Programme update

The Chair gave an update of the Programme

Previous Minutes approved without comment. 

Update on Actions from last meeting: -

• Action 1 - Feedback in the Terms of Reference – All complete
• Action 2 - Continue to update existing data on the Public Sector Estate – Still Ongoing
• Action 3 - Share key points from future Governance meetings with Forum members – Continuing
• Action 4  - Volunteers welcome to test new guidance – Ongoing, and welcomed support already received.
• Action 5  - Volunteers welcome to test new website, once mock is ready. – Currently on hold
• Action 6  - Question and answer document to be shared and feedback welcome – Work continuing, will be shared on the website when launched.
• Action 7  - Further information to be sent on communication and engagement - Continuing

The Chair confirmed that Property Controls guidance is currently being finalised.

Location Based Reviews (LBR)

Main ones are Ayr, Perth, Aberdeen, and preparing for the start of the Edinburgh LBR, more information in the next Agenda item.

Communications and Engagement

Ministerial visits are planned to take place to the Dundee Hub, BE-ST, and Perth and Kinross Council, to engage with stakeholders. We are keen to share key messages with stakeholders, and also invite stakeholders and Forum members to send in questions they may have to the Chair.

Glasgow Office Project (GOP)

Ministers currently looking at this.  Ministers have confirmed that the new build option will not be going ahead.  Now looking at existing property options, for the best way forward to ensure the most efficient use of resources.

Delivery Boards

Various Boards delivering the SSE programme. – Advisory Board, Programme Delivery Board, Senior Stakeholders Group. The Chair invites attendees them to get in touch if they wishes to be part of the process. 

Capacity Constraints – Always a risk.  Risk status is currently Amber/Green. 

Action: The Chair invited any feedback to be received by 1st October 2024.

The Chair invited any Questions:

Question MW, Nature Scot Noted the savings made to date, and also shortages of manpower.

The Chair noted that all posts on secondment are fully funded through to next year, and he has no concerns about the number of posts for the project.

The Minister also responded to the question regarding savings – One of the things being looked at is where to invest diligently to save long term. We are looking at where the big prize in savings could be, and at the moment we are just scratching the surface of this.

The Chair noted that Spend to Save is something that the SSE Team are going to be investigating this year. As improved data is forthcoming we can make better case on this front. Savings and Investment do link together.

Question AW, Valuation Office Agency : For Mr McKee, how involved are the wider public sector including National Health Service (NHS/0, Local Authorities engaged in the wider SSE programme ?

Mr McKee:  The Minister noted that he had recently chaired the SSE Senior Stakeholder Group, and this was raised. The wider public sector is involved in the programme, from Local Authorities and also the NHS.  He does not underestimate the challenges that are involved, but encouraged as many people as possible to take part in the process.

No further questions asked.

• LBRs

The Chair invited NM to give an update.

The LBR’s are undertaken from the perspective of Scottish Ministers. Looking to make best use of what we have got in the estate at present. Gathering all information into one place. NM indicated that Inverness has several stakeholders across the City, and Ayr by contrast covers a small geographical area. Edinburgh is the largest City for Scottish Ministers buildings portfolio, at an early stage with this.  Edinburgh complex with a vast array of properties, and public bodies.  We need public bodies to come forward to us, to help us understand what they need. In Edinburgh it would not be the case everyone would come together into one building, but looking for the best opportunities to co-locate.

NM invited any questions:

Question AMacG, Scottish Water: Can Neil give any news on Aberdeen LBR ?

NM said that there would not be any potential opportunities to share immediately, but would be looking to 2027/2028 before any opportunities would arise.

Observation by AMcF, Creative Scotland: Office Capability – what about spaces for conference facilities etc, in each location.?

NM responded:  This plays into each individual body being unique.  Not all organisations are like the Scottish Government, in that some bodies will openly invite the public into their properties.

MA added a comment:  At the moment we are collecting Data through ePIMS.  If all bodies were to come together to agree to make information visible, that would mean that the system would have the capability to show up surplus space. This is something that we would like to show up in the future. We need to decide what should be visible, and Team would  be very happy to have that discussion going forward.

Observation by MW, Nature Scot: What about Inverness, what is happening?

Neil responded:  Looking at what properties we have, and what we would like to occupy in the future.  Looking at all of the stakeholders and their individual circumstances, and opportunities for co-location. Had a talk yesterday with SMcQ about engaging with the local municipal authority about looking at opportunities.

Observation MS, Redress Scotland: If there was a system which indicated what properties across Scotland are available for having meetings etc, that would be very useful. Also asked about ePIMS

Neil replied that while that is not something in the SSE, it is clearly something that would be of benefit, as there is clearly demand for something like this.  NM outlined the electronic Property Information Management System (ePIMS).

No further questions were asked.

 

• Data update and discussion

The Chair invited DL to give an update.

DL asked Forum members to ensure that all data entries on ePIMS are up to date and accurate as far as possible. There will be a validation tool available very soon which will be able to look at any property, and determine whether or not that property is available. Data team will be meeting with the Insite Group very soon, to determine what data entries are mandatory, and those that are optional. Once he has that definitive list it will be passed on to Forum members.

Referring to the earlier discussion DL noted that it is necessary for everything to be as visible as possible.

MA noted that in theory, each property should have a different layer of information. For example Victoria Quay, occupied by both Scottish Ministers and Transport Scotland.  In this case there would a high level entry for Scottish Ministers, and a lower level entry for Transport Scotland.  This would show who the main and subsidiary occupiers were, and also any unoccupied space that may be available.

DL noted that once the move to Insite is complete entries should be accurate.

Question KS National Museums Scotland: Keith noted that his team has not been part of ePIMS, and do not have anyone trained. David Noted that he would have a look at this

DL noted that once the move to Insite is complete entries should updated regularly to ensure accuracy.

No further questions.

• Any other business

The Chair asked if there was any other Business the Forum wished to raise – None.

The Chair indicated that if there were any issues any members wished to raise in meetings to contact him.  Will also look at website work for future meetings.

The Chair will be setting up in-person events, including one in Parliament.